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Car Show Snobbery Rant

B

BobV

Well-Known Member
Thanks to Jeremy for the invite to the Ottawa show, but according to their flyer, I'm not welcome there...

:soapboxrant

"1972 & Older vehicles only" - so go SUCK IT! :hide

Sorry, but that kind of stuff just pisses me off any more. "If your vehicle isn't 40 years old, we don't want to see it. We'd rather look at a rusty 6 cylinder 1962 Valiant than something that's only 20 or 30 years old and really nice." So, when IS the last time you saw a NICE restored Foxbody Mustang? They ARE the 1965-1973 Mustang for this generation...

Sure, I understand not "wanting" a showfield full of stock 2001 V6 Mustangs, but the "1972" rule used by Goodguys, and other snobby local clubs eliminates a lot of really NICE vehicles, and just turns away many present and future enthusiasts, including me. Frankly, there have been some VERY cool cars made in the past 40 years, and I'd much rather see a Laguna Seca Boss 302, or a lo-mile bone stock 1982 GT "in the flesh" than walk by ANOTHER 1955 Chevy 4-door with chrome valvecovers...

As far as the argument, about newer cars not being "built" by the owners, I'd be willing to bet that my 91 Saleen has had more work done on it BY THE OWNERS than many of the vehicles I regularly see at these shows...

/ :soapboxrant

Discuss...
 
Funny how I've seen that 1972 cutoff for eons. You'd think it would move forward as the years go by. Maybe they just don't want any Vega's, Pinto's and Mustang II's!
 
So where would you place the cut-off? IMHO (and having owned an 83 and 02) post early seventies cars and later don't mix real well. I rarely even give one a glance at a show, to be honest. As soon as you raise the entry range a show would be flooded with late models. And yes, the great majority would be stock except for the gaudy wheels and other bolt on stuff that almost all exhibit.
I can appreciate a well restored of modified late model (I had two of them myself) but I can see plenty of those in just about any parking lot I might use. Up here in the Midwest you don't see the earlier cars parked or even on the road very often. Save the show space for them. Besides, the majority of shows I see are open to all comers anyway. Having a few dedicated to the earlier cars is a good idea.
 
Most of the shows around here are the cutoff is 25 years or older... The old car club that I recently joined has that rule too. Some of the folks aren't crazy about '87 joining a fleet of mainly pre 60's car club, but they are realizing that to keep a 60 year old club going, they need to honor the 25 year old rule and also loosen up the rules some for modified cars.
 
I could live with a rolling 25 year rule. A little more reasonable. Although, I don't remember us sitting around back in 1989 (or 1979 even) discussing whether a 1965 Mustang was "old enough" to be in a show though... :roll Still, I'd rather crawl all over that Laguna Seca B2 than look at another "half-ass restored" 65/66 red coupe 289 2V "Hipo". :no (no offense, coupe owners)

Somebody on another forum used to wonder whether the vintage Mustang hobby might someday go the way of the Model A... Those guys refused to accept anything newer than 1949 at their shows. Of course, how many growing, thriving Model A clubs do you see around anymore. :shrug

It's funny to look in the parking lot at Mustang club meetings. How many pre-74's do you ever see?
 
I have been to a few shows where it was open to newer cars. The problem is how do you draw the line on what kind of car. I would love to see some nicely done fox mustangs and such. The problem in my opinion is you get nothing but little ricers with their 82 Honda's blasting the subs and being disrespectful. Or you end up with a ton of bone stock 05 and up mustangs which I can see at the dealerships if I want to look at them. If they opened up the shows to newer cars, I would still like to see the cutoff in the late 80's or so.

I do get sick of the same old classics at every show too. Especially around here. Every show I go to I see the same cars. It gets boring.
 
"BobV" said:
It's funny to look in the parking lot at Mustang club meetings. How many pre-74's do you ever see?
Click to expand...
What I see is a sea of newer cars either straight off the lot or with a CAI (good for an additonal 100 h.p. :sarc) and ugly aftermarket wheels. To go along with that are dozens of young twenty somethings who "know" everything about cars including how my car is "wrong" or slow or whatever because...

A small percentage of those guys will remain car guys and will be chatting on a forum in twenty years about how new cars don't belong at their shows. If there was a way to sift through the hoards and have just those guys and their late models attend shows I would be fine with it. I don't need Johnny bench racer with the day-glow paint job in the next spot.
 
"BobV" said:
It's funny to look in the parking lot at Mustang club meetings. How many pre-74's do you ever see?
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The very reason I don't belong to the local Mustang club or participate in their events.
 
Sorry, but I have a STRONG opinion on this.
The last Shelby show I went to "The Spring Fling" had some serious metal going on, survivor cars and really rare stuff. They had the Shelby cars parked in a neat row of parking spots face to face in a different lot than the newer FOX body and other Ford stuff, but later in the day a stream of newish Yellow mustangs came trolling in and parked right in a row in front of the Shelby cars crowding the area and blocking the views from cameras. Then the people piled out of the yellow cars and got out the RC cars, kids with ice cream and a bunch of other things you really dont want to have around these cars, seriously who in the hell runs a fast RC car around $200k cars?

I heard from a few Shelby owners that the consensus was the same.

And dont even think about trying to have a vintage Mustang show without the Saleen/Shelby/Roush crowd thinking they need a special lot! Sorry, but they are just used cars, not exotics and certainly not rare. I dont care if you managed to save your window sticker and build sheet for 8 years, I know it was tough to restore that car after all of those 9000 miles, but you will get over it.

Anyway, it kinda ruined the show for many and newer cars that ANYBODY with a payment book can own have no place in the same square acre of vintage iron that takes much much more work to make nice or maintain.

Basically if a car show looks like a used car lot or a high school parking lot then I have no interest in going.
 
I bet back in the 70s-80s car clubs were discussing whether to allow those damn Mustangs and Camaros in the show. Heck they're just used cars. Its called time...and it moves. At what point do you allow 25 year old cars in a show? Heck if someone restored or has kept a car in show condition that long, they deserve to be in a show. Heck a showroom stock Gremlin would be a sight to see, wouldn't it?

That being said I'm not a fan of shows including 'new' cars in the same class as older cars. Heck I was at a Pontiac show, with my stock show quality 22yo Fiero, and a guy who literally bought a new Solstice at the dealer across the street and drove at all the way over (100yards) won first place. :roul :rant :soapboxrant
 
Just drive em and/or race em then throw a big party at your house to get a bunch of them in one spot for a good photo and call it a year.
 
"KBMWRS" said:
I bet back in the 70s-80s car clubs were discussing whether to allow those damn Mustangs and Camaros in the show. Heck they're just used cars. Its called time...and it moves. At what point do you allow 25 year old cars in a show? Heck if someone restored or has kept a car in show condition that long, they deserve to be in a show. Heck a showroom stock Gremlin would be a sight to see, wouldn't it?

That being said I'm not a fan of shows including 'new' cars in the same class as older cars. Heck I was at a Pontiac show, with my stock show quality 22yo Fiero, and a guy who literally bought a new Solstice at the dealer across the street and drove at all the way over (100yards) won first place. :roul :rant :soapboxrant
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There ARE plenty of show opportunities for all cars. The debate is whether a show is wrong to exclude newer cars. I say so long as there are an adequate number of older cars to fill the lot, let the new models show off elsewhere. That's all. Putting the "kids" on the other side of the parking lot only solves a minor part of the dilemma. It's not about exclusion as much as it is consistency.

When I had my Roush I never put it into a show. Certainly not with restored classics. I also never spent much time with the other Roush/Saleen owners either. I modded mine to be what I wanted it to be and that was like sacrilege to some of those guys. Everyone has their thing and it shouldn't be forced on anyone else.
 
I've had mine since 82. I got turned away from a couple of parking lot shows because the car didn't fit in with the 25 yr rule. Which was cool. I had no problem with it. At one of the shows as we were walking through, There were 2 70 Shelby GT 500s. The guy who brough my GTO asked why the 500's were alowed in buy his GTO wasn't. He was told, Those cars are rare and will be worth something more than your modified GTO. Personally, I never cared one way or another. I would rather drive mine than let it sit on a lot somewhere looking pretty. I'll enter it in shows,but won't let it be judged. The thing that bugs me is, A few years ago at a show put on by the local Tri 5 club,There were 3 or 4 Magnums there. Not the SRT or the RT, the SE(Base model) and like mine the SXT(Big 6). If your going to open the gates to the late model crowd, A least open them to the special versions only like the SRT,Daytona,Super Bee,and Shelby and Roush and the like. Like was posted above, Go to any Wal Mart parking lot and you can see all the base model 5.0s you can shake a stick at.

Interestingly enough,This showed up in my email the other day. Would you consider a low rider a hot rod? I like one comment "If it's newer than 1940 than no it's not".
http://www.rodauthority.com/news/video- ... -the-past/
 
"Coupe" said:
And dont even think about trying to have a vintage Mustang show without the Saleen/Shelby/Roush crowd thinking they need a special lot! Sorry, but they are just used cars, not exotics and certainly not rare. I dont care if you managed to save your window sticker and build sheet for 8 years, I know it was tough to restore that car after all of those 9000 miles, but you will get over it.
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Special lot? Not that I've ever seen... :shrug
BTW, Saleen made fewer of my "used car" in 25 years than Shelby did in 5 years. In what years did Shelby produce only 102 cars? - for Saleen it was 1991, and only 17 cars in 1992. Don't have my window sticker or build sheet, wish I did. I'd also bet my 130k mile "used car" has been further apart than many restored 65/66's.

Which COULD get me started on another rant...
Bet it was hard to order that 65/66 upholstery from any of the 100 Mustang vendors that stock it - 87-93 Saleens used Flofit or Recaro seats, and the fabric is not made any more, for any price. That's just FABRIC, forget about upsolstery sets. They looked into repopping it a couple years ago, and we were looking at $2000+ for an upholstery set...
65-70 Shelby wheels? Call and order them from anywhere as well. Saleen wheels? At least 10 different styles used from 1984-1993, with NONE of them being produced currently. Wheel sets routinely trade in the $2000-$4000 range for some of the styles.
Shelby intake? Dial the phone - Saleen intake - wait, and be ready to spend $800-$1000.
I could go on - $500 floormats, $150 shiftknobs, $2500 (1985) airdam, $800 stereos, etc. All I'm saying is that these cars are 20+ years old now, and much more "limited" than even the 65-70 Shelbys were. Anyone who believes they are just another used car with stickers hasn't had their eyes open much. FWIW, Roush is "johnny come lately" to the game, Saleen built cars for 10+ years before Roush, and you won't find any 20+ y/o Roushes...
 
Bob, I understand your argument it's just that the majority of people don't view modern era cars in the same light as older classics. I, for instance absolutely LOVED my black/black 83 GT. Built it for a single purpose and it was fast and fun. Same for my 02 Roush (which would crush a Saleen :nut btw). I would never expect either of them to sit in the same show lot as 60's cars. It can get slippery. One more step after that we'd have Hondas and such :puk
 
BobV please dont take it personal, but being in Indy and running up to bug Kenny Brown about my FOX body mods was the norm only a few years ago (Well, it feels like only a few years ago) and after owning several iterations of mustangs you cant be serious comparing the newer stuff to the early cars?

And the whole "Shelby made more" is a weak argument at best. I went to more Saleen shows last year than any other show and while there numbers were not large I doubt that number will change much since those cars were purchased largely for investment. We dont exactly see them rusting away behind a barn like we did 20 year old 67's back in the 80's.

Look at comic books, the ones that rotted away into powder or were destroyed in the paper drives during the war years are the big money rare issues. Just because you make a new comic book with a "Special collector cover" does not guarantee anything.

I doubt the FOX cars (Specialty cars included) or most other modern car will fade from the roads being that the cars that they kitted were sold in huge huge numbers and built way way better than a 65-70 car.
 
I have attended a LOT of open shows in the last 25+ years. Heck, I've RUN/helped a 500+ vehicle show for 10 years. Few imports ever show up - when they do, it's usually a HS kid who has to do with what he has. We've never turned away a HS kid. The only guy I've had to talk to about a loud car stereo was playing 50's crap, because he didn't like the DJ mixing in 70-80's music! Last year, we had 380 CAR entries (exclude trucks/bikes), which were divided into 5 classes for judging purposes. In the past 10 years, the pre-49 & 50-59 classes have shrunk to 1/2 their previous size. The 60-69 has held steady, maybe even grown. The 70-79 has grown, and the the 80-up class has exploded - more than doubled, with 112 entries (30% of car entries). There are a few showroom new cars, but most are modified, and the showroom stuff never is "allowed" to win.

IMHO, if an unmodded new GT500 wins Best of Show, people should be mad at the organizer for crappy judging practices, not at the car-owner........ :char
If people want to continue with the "1972" rule, eventually it will come down to whoever lives the longest, wins. The last 2 guys can sit there wondering where all the cool pre-73 cars went, and why nobody brings them out anymore. :nut
 
"BobV" said:
Which COULD get me started on another rant...
Bet it was hard to order that 65/66 upholstery from any of the 100 Mustang vendors that stock it - 87-93 Saleens used Flofit or Recaro seats, and the fabric is not made any more, for any price. That's just FABRIC, forget about upsolstery sets. They looked into repopping it a couple years ago, and we were looking at $2000+ for an upholstery set...
65-70 Shelby wheels? Call and order them from anywhere as well. Saleen wheels? At least 10 different styles used from 1984-1993, with NONE of them being produced currently. Wheel sets routinely trade in the $2000-$4000 range for some of the styles.
Shelby intake? Dial the phone - Saleen intake - wait, and be ready to spend $800-$1000.
I could go on - $500 floormats, $150 shiftknobs, $2500 (1985) airdam, $800 stereos, etc. All I'm saying is that these cars are 20+ years old now, and much more "limited" than even the 65-70 Shelbys were. Anyone who believes they are just another used car with stickers hasn't had their eyes open much. FWIW, Roush is "johnny come lately" to the game, Saleen built cars for 10+ years before Roush, and you won't find any 20+ y/o Roushes...
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While it is true there are many suppliers of parts for vintage Mustangs and virtually none for the Fox body Mustangs, the parts you mentioned for vintage Mustangs are reproductions and will not pass for assembly line parts which is what's desired for a concours restoration. Please do not get this matter confused. Obtaining concours correct parts for vintage Mustangs is in fact much harder than obtaining parts for Fox body Mustangs with few exceptions.
 
I will say that the best show I have ever been to is the Arthritis foundation show in Dublin Ohio. I love this show because you can get a room right at the show and to say its a party after hours is an understatement.

That show allows all types of cars, I love seeing the exotics from Italy regardless of age or condition, it even has brass cars. The show is usually divided into different zones so the cars are clustered with others like them, but I feel it's unfortunate that the mustangs get shoved into a lot all together, its one of the most popular cars in America and it gets kinda tight. I would prefer the classics be in one row and the late models get lined up, just like at a used car lot (I keed I keed)...

The Good guys show is more about the metal work, creativity and the hot rod muscle cars. I am glad to see that its still pre-72 only.

Most of the time, at the charity shows you are comparing sailboats to jet skis.
 
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