blue65coupe
Well-Known Member
"kb3" said:
...and in 6 months we'll have another burnout episode.
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When it rains it pours...
- Thread starter Horseplay
- Start date
...and in 6 months we'll have another burnout episode.
Terry, I can tell through all of this that you are proud of your son; probably on two counts: 1) his integrity and 2) that he can do donuts!
The fact is that when we sign up to be parents we don't sign up to be parents of perfect kids. I would honestly be worried if my kids didn't get into a little trouble (hopefully just a little!).
I wish you well through all of this and know that this will be a memory that will soon be laughed at loudly at family gatherings, in fact I would make sure that the ticket is posted on his Graduation Board in a couple of years.
Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk
The fact is that when we sign up to be parents we don't sign up to be parents of perfect kids. I would honestly be worried if my kids didn't get into a little trouble (hopefully just a little!).
I wish you well through all of this and know that this will be a memory that will soon be laughed at loudly at family gatherings, in fact I would make sure that the ticket is posted on his Graduation Board in a couple of years.
Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk
O
opentrackerSteve
Guest
Ignorance of the law is inexcusable as is trying to question its validity after an ignorant violation of a law.
If you are unhappy with the law, change it.
If you were a property owner where this occurred, how would you feel?
If you are unhappy with the law, change it.
If you were a property owner where this occurred, how would you feel?
Ponyman66
Yak, yak, yak
Terry I've read the whole thread from the beginning, and started doing so when there were only a few responses. I'd hesitated on commenting for a number of reasons, mainly because I try to keep my work and my hobby separate. If I can help out a fellow Stangfixer, I'm more than happy to, but I try to limit comments on the legal side. With that said, let me throw in real quick that I truly appreciate the overall LE friendly nature of the the members of this forum. Posts such as this on "other" forums quickly turn into an all out cop bashing session! Again, thanks to everyone!
First I'm kind of confused on several points. Your son is 16, legally he's a juvenile. In some states, such as mine, 17yo is treated as an adult in all criminal charges (of which traffic offenses are classified as criminal). A 16yo can be cited as an adult for traffic offenses, but only to the extant that no jail time could be handed down in sentencing. Anything like that would have to go through the juvenile justice side of the courts. If your state is different, I'd strongly recommend an attorney (which it sounds like you're doing already). What you're told outside of an attorney by the prosecutors office (DA, whatever; different states, different titles), has no legal sticking power unless in writing. I was stopped for speeding when I was 16yo and the officer had me FOLLOW him to the station in my car (I was stopped a block from my parents home). My dad was called and had to come and get me and the car. When it went to court he was told outside it would be okay, no lawyer needed, yadayadayada. Just before the trial they came and advised what the penalties would be upon conviction. They were actually WORSE than a DUI! My dad told them nope, we wanted an attorney present. After a delay they came back. When said and done, I ended up writing a 1k word essay on my responsibilities as an SC driver. Anyhow, I digress. Let the attorney work it out. Obviously your attempts were fruitless. Also, in my courts I prosecute my own misdemeanor cases (of which reckless driving is one). The only time the city attorney is present is if I request assistance (usually due to a defense attorney representing at a bench trial), or if the defendant requests a jury trial. I have, however, also had to prosecute several jury trials (though none too happy about it!). Your court system may be different. That changes not only from state to state, but we have cities here in SC that the city/county attorneys prosecute every case. You may want to confirm exactly who would be prosecuting and what type of court.
Just to clarify a few things about several comments. First, honesty IS the best policy! While I stated above that a 16yo is a juvenile, they can be taken into custody. Here they can go to a juvenile facility until a kind of "kiddy" bond hearing is held (usually several days later). Yeah, it sounds like being arrested, but you can't "arrest" a juvenile, it's called "custody". It's legal speak, same thing, different title...sheesh! Based on our system here I can tell you, given the same set of circumstances here, had he lied he could (probably would), be taken into custody. No phone call to mom and dad until AFTER he was in custody. Generally speaking law enforcement knows the answer to the questions they're asking a "suspect" about 90% of the time. They just want to see what THEY'LL say! Honesty in the answers usually opens a lot of doors for discretion to be applied. Also, the officer can, obviously, charge for the infraction regardless of not being there since there was a witness and it was "freshly committed". It would be imperative for that witness to be in court in order to convict though. To say the officer couldn't charge because he wasn't there is kinda silly (no insult intended folks, I tried to put it as nicely as I could). Police are RARELY present when an infraction occurs. The major one I can think of where they would be present would be speeding. Think about it. How would a citation be issued for a traffic accident? In over 10 years on the street, I've personally only witnessed 3 that I investigated!!! I then had to include myself on the report as a witness! So yes, he could issue the citation.
The last issue is your son's admission to the officer. First, while the officer can, and probably would, testify to receiving your son's answer, it can be recanted. WHY an attorney would advise as he did regarding the statement being made or not made is beyond me! If your son' admission was recorded on video (don't forget about the in-car camera on the cruiser!), or gave a written statement, that would be a little different! Many times people openly admit to me their infraction. Some don't REALIZE they are, but if necessary I include it in my testimony. I almost think it humorous the ones that tell me, "but sir I wasn't speeding. I was only doing 40 in a 35 zone"! Ummm, yeah, okay. That's still speeding Clarence Darrow! LOL Unless someone is placed under arrest a Miranda warning is NOT required. Anything said during a pre-arrest interview is legally admissible. Even AFTER an arrest Miranda is not required if no questions regarding the crime are not asked. If someone is arrested and no Miranda is given don't think you'll get out of it by blurting out "I admit it, I DID rape that owl!" LOL It's admissible under what's known as an "excited utterance". Lastly, unless the jurisdictional agency requires it of their officers, parents are NOT legally required to be present when a juvenile is questioned. It may differ by law from state to state though. They are also entitled to their Miranda rights and have all the legal rights of protection afforded an adult. That DOESN'T differ from state to state. There is no age clause in the Constitution! When present, parents also have no power to advise that their children will not answer a question, or make a statement for them. They do not qualify as legal counsel.
Okay enough of all that. One recommendation on something I didn't see you post. Have you asked to meet with the officer and talk it over with him? I know he called you out there, but that was "heat of the moment" . You may want to sit down and talk it over with him. Be aware, he will have legal limitations on what he can/can't discuss due to the pending charge. You may be able to reach some agreement with him directly though. Caring parents usually carry just as much weight with officers as honesty does!
Bottom line, we try to teach our kids to do the right thing. Doing the doughnuts sounds like a kid stupidity, show off, peer pressure type thing. Do I condone it? Nope, as I know you don't. We can't control them 24/7 however. Standing up and honestly admitting to it, a truly adult and responsible act. If I had to pick only one thing of the two I'd want my children to do, it would be taking responsibility. Kudos to you on that lesson taught! Not trying to armchair quarterback the officer's decision to write a reckless charge (I wasn't there, don't know the totality of the circumstances), but I would more than likely NOT have chosen do that. The phone call and getting you up there? Absolutely, good choice. I may have been hard pressed to even issue a citation. Again, dunno, wasn't there. There are times to indeed be a hard a$$, and other times to show a little leniency and use discretion.
Good luck with it and if nothing else, hopefully he's learned a positive lesson from a negative situation. Good luck with it!
Sorry, had to edit and add this Terry. Whomever you spoke with about the possible sentencing was an idiot, plain and simple. I make this statement based on what you posted that you were told. Whenever a sentence is issued for a conviction the terms of that sentence are given by the judge. He can then suspend all or part of them. If the sentence were "suspended", but you still end up with a driving school, fine and community service, good GOD, WHAT exactly got suspended of the sentence?!!! There's not much left!!! Suspension means he issues the sentence, but then declines to impose them. It IS still listed as a conviction though.
p.s. Regarding traffic citations in parking lots; here in SC DUI and reckless charges can be made anywhere, public or private property. Different states have different laws regarding that. My comments above have been based mostly on my state's laws. I tried to ensure any nationwide type issue was annotated as such. As the saying goes, your mileage may vary!
First I'm kind of confused on several points. Your son is 16, legally he's a juvenile. In some states, such as mine, 17yo is treated as an adult in all criminal charges (of which traffic offenses are classified as criminal). A 16yo can be cited as an adult for traffic offenses, but only to the extant that no jail time could be handed down in sentencing. Anything like that would have to go through the juvenile justice side of the courts. If your state is different, I'd strongly recommend an attorney (which it sounds like you're doing already). What you're told outside of an attorney by the prosecutors office (DA, whatever; different states, different titles), has no legal sticking power unless in writing. I was stopped for speeding when I was 16yo and the officer had me FOLLOW him to the station in my car (I was stopped a block from my parents home). My dad was called and had to come and get me and the car. When it went to court he was told outside it would be okay, no lawyer needed, yadayadayada. Just before the trial they came and advised what the penalties would be upon conviction. They were actually WORSE than a DUI! My dad told them nope, we wanted an attorney present. After a delay they came back. When said and done, I ended up writing a 1k word essay on my responsibilities as an SC driver. Anyhow, I digress. Let the attorney work it out. Obviously your attempts were fruitless. Also, in my courts I prosecute my own misdemeanor cases (of which reckless driving is one). The only time the city attorney is present is if I request assistance (usually due to a defense attorney representing at a bench trial), or if the defendant requests a jury trial. I have, however, also had to prosecute several jury trials (though none too happy about it!). Your court system may be different. That changes not only from state to state, but we have cities here in SC that the city/county attorneys prosecute every case. You may want to confirm exactly who would be prosecuting and what type of court.
Just to clarify a few things about several comments. First, honesty IS the best policy! While I stated above that a 16yo is a juvenile, they can be taken into custody. Here they can go to a juvenile facility until a kind of "kiddy" bond hearing is held (usually several days later). Yeah, it sounds like being arrested, but you can't "arrest" a juvenile, it's called "custody". It's legal speak, same thing, different title...sheesh! Based on our system here I can tell you, given the same set of circumstances here, had he lied he could (probably would), be taken into custody. No phone call to mom and dad until AFTER he was in custody. Generally speaking law enforcement knows the answer to the questions they're asking a "suspect" about 90% of the time. They just want to see what THEY'LL say! Honesty in the answers usually opens a lot of doors for discretion to be applied. Also, the officer can, obviously, charge for the infraction regardless of not being there since there was a witness and it was "freshly committed". It would be imperative for that witness to be in court in order to convict though. To say the officer couldn't charge because he wasn't there is kinda silly (no insult intended folks, I tried to put it as nicely as I could). Police are RARELY present when an infraction occurs. The major one I can think of where they would be present would be speeding. Think about it. How would a citation be issued for a traffic accident? In over 10 years on the street, I've personally only witnessed 3 that I investigated!!! I then had to include myself on the report as a witness! So yes, he could issue the citation.
The last issue is your son's admission to the officer. First, while the officer can, and probably would, testify to receiving your son's answer, it can be recanted. WHY an attorney would advise as he did regarding the statement being made or not made is beyond me! If your son' admission was recorded on video (don't forget about the in-car camera on the cruiser!), or gave a written statement, that would be a little different! Many times people openly admit to me their infraction. Some don't REALIZE they are, but if necessary I include it in my testimony. I almost think it humorous the ones that tell me, "but sir I wasn't speeding. I was only doing 40 in a 35 zone"! Ummm, yeah, okay. That's still speeding Clarence Darrow! LOL Unless someone is placed under arrest a Miranda warning is NOT required. Anything said during a pre-arrest interview is legally admissible. Even AFTER an arrest Miranda is not required if no questions regarding the crime are not asked. If someone is arrested and no Miranda is given don't think you'll get out of it by blurting out "I admit it, I DID rape that owl!" LOL It's admissible under what's known as an "excited utterance". Lastly, unless the jurisdictional agency requires it of their officers, parents are NOT legally required to be present when a juvenile is questioned. It may differ by law from state to state though. They are also entitled to their Miranda rights and have all the legal rights of protection afforded an adult. That DOESN'T differ from state to state. There is no age clause in the Constitution! When present, parents also have no power to advise that their children will not answer a question, or make a statement for them. They do not qualify as legal counsel.
Okay enough of all that. One recommendation on something I didn't see you post. Have you asked to meet with the officer and talk it over with him? I know he called you out there, but that was "heat of the moment" . You may want to sit down and talk it over with him. Be aware, he will have legal limitations on what he can/can't discuss due to the pending charge. You may be able to reach some agreement with him directly though. Caring parents usually carry just as much weight with officers as honesty does!
Bottom line, we try to teach our kids to do the right thing. Doing the doughnuts sounds like a kid stupidity, show off, peer pressure type thing. Do I condone it? Nope, as I know you don't. We can't control them 24/7 however. Standing up and honestly admitting to it, a truly adult and responsible act. If I had to pick only one thing of the two I'd want my children to do, it would be taking responsibility. Kudos to you on that lesson taught! Not trying to armchair quarterback the officer's decision to write a reckless charge (I wasn't there, don't know the totality of the circumstances), but I would more than likely NOT have chosen do that. The phone call and getting you up there? Absolutely, good choice. I may have been hard pressed to even issue a citation. Again, dunno, wasn't there. There are times to indeed be a hard a$$, and other times to show a little leniency and use discretion.
Good luck with it and if nothing else, hopefully he's learned a positive lesson from a negative situation. Good luck with it!
Sorry, had to edit and add this Terry. Whomever you spoke with about the possible sentencing was an idiot, plain and simple. I make this statement based on what you posted that you were told. Whenever a sentence is issued for a conviction the terms of that sentence are given by the judge. He can then suspend all or part of them. If the sentence were "suspended", but you still end up with a driving school, fine and community service, good GOD, WHAT exactly got suspended of the sentence?!!! There's not much left!!! Suspension means he issues the sentence, but then declines to impose them. It IS still listed as a conviction though.
p.s. Regarding traffic citations in parking lots; here in SC DUI and reckless charges can be made anywhere, public or private property. Different states have different laws regarding that. My comments above have been based mostly on my state's laws. I tried to ensure any nationwide type issue was annotated as such. As the saying goes, your mileage may vary!
"Ponyman66" said:
As kids we all made mistakes, on the grad scale of things this is just a minor one. But one that can learned from, and looked back upon and laughed about someday.
Ponydude I know what you mean and that is why I like this place so much. Adults here. But the other thing is the officer did not act as a richard, he was just doing his job. Nice writeup and advice.
Having a teenage daughter I can imagine what hurt the most :hide The loss of the cell phone. :nut
Good luck on the outcome of the court system.
fd
Ponyman,
Thanks for taking the time to respond from an obviously important perspective. I'll be sitting down face to face with a couple different lawyers today to review everything in totality and get their recommendations for how to proceed. I'll also put a call into the officer involved as suggested. I was hesitant to do so with all this legal stuff pending but I now obviously think you are right that I should make that call.
Thanks for taking the time to respond from an obviously important perspective. I'll be sitting down face to face with a couple different lawyers today to review everything in totality and get their recommendations for how to proceed. I'll also put a call into the officer involved as suggested. I was hesitant to do so with all this legal stuff pending but I now obviously think you are right that I should make that call.
Honestly, I still think this is a bit over the top for a kid doing a donut in a parking lot.
At our old house we had a kid that really was dangerously driving on more than one occasion. One evening I was walking out to check the mail and he went past me doing at least 70 mph, I heard him coming before he came around the curve in the road. This was in a 20 mph neighborhood with little kids on bikes all over, etc, etc.
I called the local constable and quickly had the patrol captain on the line. He did nada since he didn't actually see the kid speeding. My neighbor and I called numerous times since the kid was seen flying down the street on numerous occasions (like daily) and rarely slowed down much less stopped for the stop sign in the corner of my yard.
It went on for a while and the local constable and / or sheriff couldn't do anything without actually seeing the kid speeding. That was their story anyway. Every time we called we gave the officer the description and plate number of the car along with a description of the driver.
Finally one Saturday morning I was in the yard with my boys. The kid came flying down the road again. Only this time when a lady in front of him stopped for the stop sign he gunned it into the oncoming lane, darn near caused a head on and went around the car stopping at the stop sign at a very high rate of speed.
This time, I got the patrol captain on the phone immediately via my cell phone. Claimed again he could do nothing since he didn't see it go down. At that point we had a little frank discussion about how if one of my kids gets run over I would be suing his department because they had been made aware of the issue on multiple occasions and that they would be arresting me instead because I would kill the kid right there on the spot after I dragged him out of the car if he ran over one of my boys. Also told him I was getting really close to taking care of the situation myself but the officer would not like my solution.
The next Wednesday when I was coming home they had the kid pulled over, all four doors on the car open and him spread eagle on the hood. I didn't see him driving for some time after that so I guess an officer finally saw him going through the stop sign at freeway speed. It wasn't hard since it was a daily occurrence.
Maybe Texas is different, but locally they would not act based on eye witness testimony of truly dangerous driving from multiple witnesses regarding multiple instances of dangerous driving that I am truly surprised to this day a kid didn't end up getting run over before they finally put a stop to it.
At our old house we had a kid that really was dangerously driving on more than one occasion. One evening I was walking out to check the mail and he went past me doing at least 70 mph, I heard him coming before he came around the curve in the road. This was in a 20 mph neighborhood with little kids on bikes all over, etc, etc.
I called the local constable and quickly had the patrol captain on the line. He did nada since he didn't actually see the kid speeding. My neighbor and I called numerous times since the kid was seen flying down the street on numerous occasions (like daily) and rarely slowed down much less stopped for the stop sign in the corner of my yard.
It went on for a while and the local constable and / or sheriff couldn't do anything without actually seeing the kid speeding. That was their story anyway. Every time we called we gave the officer the description and plate number of the car along with a description of the driver.
Finally one Saturday morning I was in the yard with my boys. The kid came flying down the road again. Only this time when a lady in front of him stopped for the stop sign he gunned it into the oncoming lane, darn near caused a head on and went around the car stopping at the stop sign at a very high rate of speed.
This time, I got the patrol captain on the phone immediately via my cell phone. Claimed again he could do nothing since he didn't see it go down. At that point we had a little frank discussion about how if one of my kids gets run over I would be suing his department because they had been made aware of the issue on multiple occasions and that they would be arresting me instead because I would kill the kid right there on the spot after I dragged him out of the car if he ran over one of my boys. Also told him I was getting really close to taking care of the situation myself but the officer would not like my solution.
The next Wednesday when I was coming home they had the kid pulled over, all four doors on the car open and him spread eagle on the hood. I didn't see him driving for some time after that so I guess an officer finally saw him going through the stop sign at freeway speed. It wasn't hard since it was a daily occurrence.
Maybe Texas is different, but locally they would not act based on eye witness testimony of truly dangerous driving from multiple witnesses regarding multiple instances of dangerous driving that I am truly surprised to this day a kid didn't end up getting run over before they finally put a stop to it.
Ponyman66
Yak, yak, yak
RR as I had posted, speeding is a sticky issue when not viewed in person. There are a LOT of variables. I am in no way supporting the lack of action until your situation got to where it was. A lot of what is blamed on LE as being lazy or inept is due to a misunderstanding of the legal system. Lawyers have made things so complex it can be a royal pain nowadays. As an example; if we show someone a photo lineup of suspects, the photos must ALL be the EXACT same size (both image and paper printed on!), and same views (left, right, front), or they will be excluded from evidence. If it's the initial basis for the case, everything would then be thrown out! Ridiculous!! Having been a patrol officer in the same neighborhoods for over 5 years I've dealt with MANY speeding complaints. I had one young man in particular that was on the "hit list", and ironically enough drove a Mustang! What was worse, the times he got caught (not by me unfortunately!), mom or dad showed up and started giving the officer crap about "picking on their son". Sorry, all that does is encourage the little turd! The other (younger) officers were told, if mom or dad do that again, lock them up for interfering! I knew exactly where they lived and kept a close eye on the area while working. When they moved to a different neighborhood, which was still my area, I then started keeping an eye out there. Thankfully they're now gone.
With all that said, there are entire departments/sheriffs offices that the officers/deputies are forbidden to do certain enforcement, which includes traffic enforcement! I know, some may read that last statement and ask what am I currently smoking?! LOL It's true and unfortunately I live in an area that falls under that. One of their people quit and came to my department. While talking with him recently he told me they were routinely told at daily briefing to do anything possible to not write a report. Yep, that's MY "protection", god bless'm!
I am not about supporting lazy or inept law enforcement. I also do not condone heavy handed measures when not justified. Those things make a tough job even tougher for those out there trying to do our jobs in a fair and professional manner. We all do have a job to do so. There are times when we must take action, not from a legal or policy stand point, but from a professional and/or morale obligation to the community. Mistakes happen, there are good honest folks that just screw up! That's when our discretion comes into play. Again, I agree that in Terry's son's case, reckless may have been a bit much. Again though, none of us (including Terry), don't know ALL the details, none of us were there.
You will find that I DO NOT support or gloss over unprofessional or shoddy work by LE. It has and still does cause me problems at work. Fair is fair and right is right though. I am more than happy to help ANY Stangfixer I can. As I previously stated, I try to keep my work away from here, but at times I feel it appropriate to chime in to try to help. There are a LOT of public misconceptions about legal issues LE face that seem on the surface like they aren't doing anything. I would STRONGLY urge everyone to go down to their local PD, Sheriff's office, or even state police and see about doing a ride along. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised about the folks out there that are sworn to "protect and serve". You'll also get a real good view of what our men and women "in blue" put up with every work day. BTW, on a weekly basis SWMBO tells me I'm an a$$hole cop! LOL Guess that's why I have a pretty thick skin and am pretty patient with strangers!
With all that said, there are entire departments/sheriffs offices that the officers/deputies are forbidden to do certain enforcement, which includes traffic enforcement! I know, some may read that last statement and ask what am I currently smoking?! LOL It's true and unfortunately I live in an area that falls under that. One of their people quit and came to my department. While talking with him recently he told me they were routinely told at daily briefing to do anything possible to not write a report. Yep, that's MY "protection", god bless'm!
I am not about supporting lazy or inept law enforcement. I also do not condone heavy handed measures when not justified. Those things make a tough job even tougher for those out there trying to do our jobs in a fair and professional manner. We all do have a job to do so. There are times when we must take action, not from a legal or policy stand point, but from a professional and/or morale obligation to the community. Mistakes happen, there are good honest folks that just screw up! That's when our discretion comes into play. Again, I agree that in Terry's son's case, reckless may have been a bit much. Again though, none of us (including Terry), don't know ALL the details, none of us were there.
You will find that I DO NOT support or gloss over unprofessional or shoddy work by LE. It has and still does cause me problems at work. Fair is fair and right is right though. I am more than happy to help ANY Stangfixer I can. As I previously stated, I try to keep my work away from here, but at times I feel it appropriate to chime in to try to help. There are a LOT of public misconceptions about legal issues LE face that seem on the surface like they aren't doing anything. I would STRONGLY urge everyone to go down to their local PD, Sheriff's office, or even state police and see about doing a ride along. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised about the folks out there that are sworn to "protect and serve". You'll also get a real good view of what our men and women "in blue" put up with every work day. BTW, on a weekly basis SWMBO tells me I'm an a$$hole cop! LOL Guess that's why I have a pretty thick skin and am pretty patient with strangers!