A little cam help please.

[panteramatt]

Im going to be int the market for a set of heads and cam for my 69 mach1 with a 351w. I habve a full longtube exhaust, 750 sumitt carb, stealth intake. I will; eventually down the road build it to a 408 but for now just need an off the shelf cam. It has a fmx that will eventually be a 4r70w. So my ?s r:

1. What type of cam or specs am I looking for?

2. What springs in the head to I need hydraulic?

3. What type of cam do I need hydraulic?

4. I imagine Ill need a set of lifters with a new cam. Which r best?

[Sluggo]

Im going to be int the market for a set of heads and cam for my 69 mach1 with a 351w. I habve a full longtube exhaust, 750 sumitt carb, stealth intake. I will; eventually down the road build it to a 408 but for now just need an off the shelf cam. It has a fmx that will eventually be a 4r70w. So my ?s r:

1. What type of cam or specs am I looking for?

2. What springs in the head to I need hydraulic?

3. What type of cam do I need hydraulic?

4. I imagine Ill need a set of lifters with a new cam. Which r best?

What do you want from the cam? Lopey idle?

You'll most likely buy a matched set, cam and lifters together. Assuming you do not have a roller block, are you considering converting to roller?

[panteramatt]

To convert to a roller I need roller lifters right? I will be putting roller rockers in. Is it worth it to convert to a roller setup?

[silverblueBP]

I may have a set of Crane Gold Race roller rockers, 1.6 ratio for a 3/8" stud to sell if I switch to a shaft rocker in my 66.

[tarafied1]

what do you intend to do with the car? What does is weigh? What rear gear are running? do you have power brakes? Just some of the many things to consider...
A roller cam can be more aggressive, they can ramp open the valve quicker and for longer duration because of the roller lifters. You NEVER used old lifters on a new cam (it is acceptable on roller cams but I would be leery of doing it). They also have less friction. Probably nothing a street car would notice but considering the new motor oils it would be a good option.
High lift and long duration cam with lots of overlap is not a good street cam (they do sound cool though). They cause the engine to have low vacuum which is bad for power brakes. They generally have less low end torque and the HP and torque band is higher in the RPM range which means you will want/need a high stall converter to take advantage of the power gains. This means slippage and low speed "seat of the pants" feel is not so good. Heat destroys transmissions so slippage is bad for a street driven car. Torque converter is designed to stall at the max torque the engine produces (or as close as possible anyway). If you plan to make a street/strip car you will have to decide what comprises will be made. The springs will probably be recommended by the cam manufacturer. They need to make sure the valves will close so they are often based on lift and RPM range. Depending on how aggressive the cam and speings are, you may need screw-in studs to prevent pulling the studs out of the heads. If your looking for bigger cubes (408) and high RPM you're going to want a head that flows a lot more CFM than stock. Again, these will be of no benefit at low RPM so consider that too. If you get too carried away the car will actually feel like a dog until you are mashed to the floor. You also need to consider valve to piston clearance on a high lift cam.
My dad has a Comp Cams 268H cam in his 306 (with stock 69 351W heads) and about 10:1 CR. It is a nice street cam with a stock converter. It's in a 66 coupe so it's less than 3,000 lbs and he runs a 3.55:1 rear gear. Plenty of grunt and not too bad cruising down the road. It "feels" real strong. It all depends on what you have and what you want to do with it.

[66gt350]

You NEVER used old lifters on a new cam (it is acceptable on roller cams but I would be leery of doing it).

With roller cams, using used lifters on a new cam is no problem.  I've already swapped out cams once with the original ford lifters.  And at the next rebuild, I'm gonna toss the e303 cam and go a clay smith cam and still use the same lifters.

[panteramatt]

So whats needed to convert to a rroller cam? Whats the benefits? Whatsin it now hydraulic?

[panteramatt]

Car weighs around 3200 i guess. I want a street strip car thats capable of 11s. If i have to wait on the cam i will just wanted to throw in a used one while i have the heads off.

[tarafied1]

So whats needed to convert to a rroller cam? Whats the benefits? Whatsin it now hydraulic?

If it's it's stock it will be hydraulic. The roller cams can be hydraulic as well. There are kits to convert older SBF's to a roller cam. Basically needs something to keep the lifter from spinning in the lifter bore like a flat tappet. Also the distributer gear will need to be matched to the roller cam as the cam gear is a different size.
Benefits are like I mentioned, more radical profiles are possible with a roller than a flat tappet. Also the new oil is designed for roller cams and have less load bearing additives like zinc which is important to a flat tappet.
So with a 3200 lbs car for street and strip you will want a cam that will have a pretty flat torque curve (meaning comes on fairly early for the street and doesn't drop off too fast). If you plan an OD trans then I would for sure plan a 3:55 or lower gear (numerically higher number). Also a 11" converter that will bring stall speed up in the 3,000 rpm range. This should keep the car fun to drive and respectable numbers at the track.
Keep in mind I am an armature myself so there may be better advise out there but that is my opinion. I built a really radical SBF and it was quick (low 12's) but NOT fun on the street. I had an 85 GT 5.0 that I left mostly stock and just put MAC headers, off road exhaust, 3.55 gears and a better clutch and it was MUCH MUCH more fun to drive but not as quick on the track (mid 13's at best). These numbers were obtained using a "Vericom". Now I have a mild 429 and it idles like grandpa's T-Bird and goes like a bat outta he//. I drive it everywhere and with no OD I still got 16 mpg on the Power Tour. I'd probably be embarrassed by the 1/4 times (I don't know what it will run) but it will shame most of the cars on the road and the ones I know will kick my arse I just pretend like they aren't worth my time.
I am building a purpose built drag car however and it will not have any time on the street so I plan (as money allows) to go crazy with it!

[tarafied1]

a quote from "Smedding Performance" on a 427 stroker 351W build

Smeding Performance has its own profiles; in this case the hydraulic roller cam's specs are: 0.508-inch intake lift, 0.532-inch exhaust lift, and duration (at 0.050-inch lift) of 222 degrees on the intake and 232 degrees on the exhaust. "Most engines like a little more timing on the exhausts", says Smeding, "and that helps the STREET RODDER 427 achieve such a flat torque curve."

Like the sound of 462 hp? Well, that's cool, but this 427 also exhibits a very broad torque curve (the torque peak was 529 lb-ft), but the average torque over the range of all dyno speeds from 2,500-5,500 rpm was a tick over 500 lb-ft.

[tarafied1]

With roller cams, using used lifters on a new cam is no problem.  I've already swapped out cams once with the original ford lifters.  And at the next rebuild, I'm gonna toss the e303 cam and go a clay smith cam and still use the same lifters.

I've heard that but never tried it. I guess I might on my build. My 94 Cobra short block has an E303 roller cam which everyone says is too mild so I may be swapping in something a bit more radical and keep the lifters. What specs are you using on the Clay Smith cam?

[Sluggo]

This is what is in my car. I'm very impressed with it. I was going to go roller but changed my mind. Pulling 25 inches of vacuum at 750 rpm.

Lunati's Voodoo 61003

Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 268/276
Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 227/233
Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .522/.538
LSA/ICL: 110/106
Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
RPM Range: 1800-6200
Includes: Cam Kit
Part Number: 61003LK
http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=2361&gid=297

[panteramatt]

So to convert to a roller i would need roller lifters and a new dizzy gear? Sounds like it may be more trouble and $ than its worth. Any ots cam suggestions or #s to help me find a nice used cam? Im replacing my heads a rad and just think it would be awaste not to put a better cam in while im at it.

[tarafied1]

it's a 427 stroker right? What heads/intake? IIRC you have the Summit carb?

[tarafied1]

So to convert to a roller i would need roller lifters and a new dizzy gear? Sounds like it may be more trouble and $ than its worth. Any ots cam suggestions or #s to help me find a nice used cam? Im replacing my heads a rad and just think it would be awaste not to put a better cam in while im at it.

The retro lifters are over $400. They have an H bar to keep the lifters from rotating.

Want to run a roller cam and roller lifters in your non-roller 221-302, 351W, Boss 302, or 351 Cleveland? It's as simple as getting a Crane Retrofit Roller Lifter Installation Kit and matching camshaft. The kit doesn't require any machining of the block -- just drop the stuff in and you have yourself a roller cam setup. The installation kit includes hydraulic roller lifters, special lifter guidebars, a guidebar hold-down plate (also called the spider), reinforcing bar, and hardware. You will need to get one of Crane's retrofit cams; they have an extra-small base circle that makes the swap work. You'll also need longer pushrods and a steel or bronze distributor drive gear, which Crane also has available. Take a look and see just how easy this swap is.

[panteramatt]

Right now this is goin in astock bore 351. In a couple years it will be a 408. So if i justwant arepmacement i need a hydraulic flat tappet cam and lifter? And if i need a roller i need roller lifter conversion and new dizzy gear?

[tarafied1]

Right now this is goin in astock bore 351. In a couple years it will be a 408. So if i justwant arepmacement i need a hydraulic flat tappet cam and lifter? And if i need a roller i need roller lifter conversion and new dizzy gear?

yep

[panteramatt]

Are 302 and 351 cams the same?

[Sluggo]

Sort of.

An early 302 has a different firing order. A later 5.0 and all 351 windsors have the same firing order. You can use a cam for an older 302 but must use that firing order. I don't recommend it however.

[panteramatt]

Ok so as long as the cam was built for a 85+302 it will work in my 69 351?

[66gt350]

I've heard that but never tried it. I guess I might on my build. My 94 Cobra short block has an E303 roller cam which everyone says is too mild so I may be swapping in something a bit more radical and keep the lifters. What specs are you using on the Clay Smith cam?

I'm not sure which cam I'm gonna go with.  I've talked with George at Clay Smith a couple of times.  I'm not gonna go too much more radical than the ford cam.  I just want to get away from the e303 and the dreaded idle surge, even though I've  got most of that tuned out.

The retro lifters are over $400. They have an H bar to keep the lifters from rotating.

With those retro fit lifters, do you need to run a small base circle cam?  I think I heard that somewhere, but I don't recall.

Sort of.

An early 302 has a different firing order. A later 5.0 and all 351 windsors have the same firing order. You can use a cam for an older 302 but must use that firing order. I don't recommend it however.

Normal 5.0 motors have the older style firing order, it's the HO motors that have the different firing order.  but most cams that manufacturers grind have the HO firing order.

289                   1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
302 (Pre-82)      1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
5.0                   1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
5.0 HO              1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
5.0 Truck           1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
351                   1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8

Over the years, I've run both firing orders in my car.  I've never had any issues with either one.

[tarafied1]

quick history lesson. In 1982 Ford reintroduced the GT (Mustang GT that is). It was a tried and true smog motor 302 but they put a marine application 351W cam in it and a bigger 2 barrel carb. Ever since then the HO motor's have been using 351W firing order. It was just some off-the-shelf stuff in the beginning.

As for the smaller base circle roller cam, I'm no expert but I believe it is needed to keep the cylinder part of the lifters in the bore of the older block as the newer block has a different casting.

Since I'm on a budget, I'm going to start with the E303 but once I am comfortable with my driving and the car set-up, I plan to play with cams, intake, heads and maybe some day a turbo. This car is going to seriously beat on!

[gotstang]

As for the smaller base circle roller cam, I'm no expert but I believe it is needed to keep the cylinder part of the lifters in the bore of the older block as the newer block has a different casting.

Yeah. There is another option; a 5.0L type cam with linkbar lifters will work to retrofit an older block. The small base circle cams are just one big compromise and $$$. When you can pick up a used performance 5.0L cam for $100, the retrofit cam really isn't a great option, IMHO...the linkbar lifters are not too expensive, so it can be done for reasonable $$.

As for cam reccomendations, I'd probably stick with a hyd. flat tappet for simplicity. A Lunati 61002 would probably be my top choice, followed by a Comp XE268H...but, cam selection depends on the rest of the engine specs, especially heads and compression ratio.

[panteramatt]

Great. So any of the used cams made for HO 82-93 5.0 will drop right into my 351 right? And as long as it a hydro flat tappet all I would need is new lifters?

[Sluggo]

Great. So any of the used cams made for HO 82-93 5.0 will drop right into my 351 right? And as long as it a hydro flat tappet all I would need is new lifters?

As long as it is a roller. Flat tappet cams can not be reused.