Brakes -- Power vs. Manual. What you got, why, and would you switch?

[AtlantaSteve]

It's time to get serious about brakes.

My plan is to replace every inch of everything that carries fluid.  I'm sure some of the lines are 40+ years, and all of the hoses are 10+, and the car has sat so long that I'm just gonna go from master cylinder to each wheel, including the wheel cylinders in the rear-drums(even though I'm keeping the drums)

My plan is to keep the rear drums (for now) and to switch the front to disc brakes.  The disc brake kit I'm going with will use 2005-2009 Mustang GT twin piston floating calipers.

I've asked lots of people and done lots of thinking on this, and am still on the fence on power brakes.   I LIKE the idea of power brakes, but I'm not sold that it's worth the extra money and work.  *IF* I go PowerBrake, I'll probably go with MustangSteve's Power Brake upgrade kit.  Plus, I've heard some complain that power assist on these cars makes the brakes too sensitive and you're constantly battling lockup on any hard stops.  Plus I've heard those who say that manual brakes do not require as much pedal effort as one would think.

I grew up with 4 wheel manual drums, and was fine with them...but I know anytime a car I've had with discs lost power assist (say I cut the engine on my camry) I've gotta STAND on the pedal to get the car to stop.  This is most likely due to the bore of the M/C on my camry, though, as it was designed to be used with power assist, correct?

SO, Your experience.  Who has power, who has manual, what do you think about it?   IF you did the car again, would you switch, and why?

Thanks guys...

Steve

[silverblueBP]

I have manual brakes in mine, front discs are the Lincoln big brakes and the rear are the stock 10" drums. I have the dual MC from Shaun, new lines, all the flex lines are braided too. Running Porterfield R4 pads and R4S shoes.

Wouldn't trade it for the world! It has great feedback, it's not that hard and still stops the car fast enough to make yer eyes bug out of your head.

[66gt350]

I've got manual discs on the front on my fastback, and put power discs on the front of the wife's coupe.  I have no problems stopping when I have to hit the brakes on my fastback.  I went with SSBC front kit on both cars.  It took longer to get the power booster installed than it did to get the rest of the swap done.

[AtlantaSteve]

If you were redoing your wife's coupe, would you still go with power?

[camachinist]

Ha, still got the manual jelly jar and drums on the D-coder and, on the first test-flight in eight years, ended up testing them severely last Sunday night when confronted with a tractor pulling a vineyard sprayer (no lights or placarding) at 11pm on the way home. Doing 60 when suddenly a faint but familiar shape appeared in the windscreen. While I was figuring it out, instinctively I pumped the brakes, locking and releasing the tires (could hear them) until I saw it wasn't a wide load, there was no oncoming and I could get around it, and then cut left to clear it. Car was amazingly predictable and no pull or other upsets, even on the narrow, crowned road.

Anyway, one anecdote. It wouldn't have happened if I had better headlights or had the high beams been on. Guess that's instructive.

For what I use the car for, meaning not racing or rallying, historically, the manual drums have been fine. Pedal effort is high, so I wouldn't recommend it for a woman (power would be better), but I have no complaints. Saved my bacon on Sunday.

[66gt350]

If you were redoing your wife's coupe, would you still go with power?

I dunno...the power booster does help, but it's not like a modern car.  Actually, that the first thing I heard is that they feel different from her Saturn.  I can't win!  LOL!!  If I was to do it again, I'd probably just put on manual disc on her car...and I'd probably get the same comments!

[Jonk67]

Just a side note Steve, since my car isn't driveable yet since switching from manual drum to PDB, so really  :nta
but I bet half of the reason a PB car with no vacuum is harder to stop is the different pedal ratios between manual/power, the fulcrum is longer for the manual car to multiply your leg strength.

How agressive of a cam will you be installing when you redo the motor in the future also? If it's too much lower than around stock ~17" you will run out of vacuum on an opentrack course I have read. Read a post of an opentracker with ~13"? of vacuum (can't remember exactly) due to cam, loosing power assist half way through the course as he wasn't in the vacuum building band of the engine much but was on the brakes a lot and depleted his reserve in the booster. You could install a canister for reserve vacuum but I have no idea how long that would last too for a 10-15 min. opentrack event. Just another point to think about.

Also can't remember which way it goes but if I recall correctly usually 2 sizes of MC bore are acceptable, lets say 15/16" and 1", one will give you a shorter throw and stiffer brake pedal and the other will net a longer travel and a softer, more gradual and linear feel to the application. Maybe someone like John OTR will chime in with hard numbers for the manual MC bore and which is which (hard/soft).

"it's not that hard and still stops the car fast enough to make yer ears bug out of your head."
There fixed it for ya' Mark :craz

Jon

[silverblueBP]

Hmmmm, that's why my ears keep getting bigger  :ep

[SELLERSRODSHOP]

to take over where jon left off ( i'll completey bypass that "ear" thing :!!) the smaller the bore size, the lesser the pedal effort, BUT the longer the actuation stroke. a 7/8 master will be easier on the leg than a 1" bore but will have more pedal travel to move the same amount of fluid. you also need to make sure that the m/c holds enough fluid to properly work the calipers, which shouldn't be a big issue with the brakes you will be running. i wanted to stay manual with mine as i like the solid pedal feel, but after doing research, decided to go power as i had many more master cylinder choices with the addition of power.

heres one of the best brake system writeups i've seen. it pretty much explains the "why's" & not just "buy this & that":

http://www.hotrodheaven.com/tech/brakes/brakes1.htm

 

[garner67]

I have a 4 wheel disc brakes system from Baer.  The kit is a manual setup, and although it does take some effort to lock up the brakes, I prefer the pedal feel of the manual brakes over power.

[Horseplay]

heres one of the best brake system writeups i've seen. it pretty much explains the "why's" & not just "buy this & that":
http://www.hotrodheaven.com/tech/brakes/brakes1.htm

FWIW, when researching brakes for my project I stumbled upon this write-up. I then made a couple calls to Dean and ended up buying all my Wilwood stuff from him. I even came back many months later and upgraded to a different set-up on the front (bigger and badder but more $$$ which was what Dean originally wanted me to get) and he gave me a full refund on the first set-up, no questions. Highly recommend him as both an unbelievable expert in the field but also a good supplier.

[Fast68back]

I have manual four wheel discs. Front are Baer sport or track or whatever they call them now. Essentially PBR calipers on 12" drilled and slotted rotors, the rear has the Explorer disc kit with 11" drilled and slotted rotors. Stops pretty decent with minimal pedal effort.

[hivewax]

I like everything manual... keep it raw simple.

[johnpro]

On Scary (my '69), I'm using power front disks from a '70 Mustang with rear drums.  I like it fine, and it works well for what I use it for.  Does usually take me to the second exit at the drag strip to leave the track when crossing the finish line at 113 mph.

On my '66, I have manual '70 disks with drums in back.  I'm using he '74 Maverick master cylinder for manual disk/drum cars.  It requires no more effort than either Scary or my daughter's '67 (stock '67 power disk/drum).  In fact, it may require less effort, and it definitely has better "road feel".  I prefer this setup over either of our other 2 cars, and would highly recommend it.  It has all the advantages of power disks, the bigger bearings of the '70/later, and not a single down side of power brakes ... meaning no big clunky booster, no worrying about if you have enough vacuum to run the booster, no booster to go bad.  Also on a '67/later, you don't have to worry about sourcing out a power brake pedal (there is no such thing as a power brake pedal for '65/'66 cars).

If you've ever driven a '65/'66 with stock power brakes, you will ask yourself, "Self, is this really power brakes, or do I have a bunch of extra parts that just looks like power brakes?"  Stock power brakes on a '65/'66 is completely worthless, and barely noticeable from manual brakes.

[AtlantaSteve]

Thanks, one and all.  Please keep them coming.  I've been leaning towards Manual brakes for a long time and have seen nothing here to dissuade me on that path.   John, that's the exact Master Cylinder I've been considering, too.

Thanks again, big big help!

[RyanG85]

Wish this post was around a month ago..... on my 65, I just installed 1970 spindles/brakes. I bought a manual dual M/C but ended up returning it for the SSBC Power booster set up. I havent had it on the road yet but hope I didnt just waste $200....... :rp

[tarafied1]

I have manual 4 wheel disc brakes. I did the swap almost 20 years ago before there were "kits" and aftermarket parts. I have Granada spindles and Versailles rear and the stock 67 manual MC. It does take some pedal effort but I'm so used to it I don't notice. I have had to panic stop and it will! I jump back and forth into a lot of rental cars and honestly I think my brakes are as good as any factory setup for the street.
I wanted to go with power brakes but I can't fit a booster in there with the 429 using the tall valve covers I have. The one's I got from Pete's buddy might allow a booster to fit but after reading all these comments I might not worry about it (I have a radiator decisions to make!)

[buening]

manual 4 drums to power disc/drum.   The manuals had a pretty stiff pedal but the power has a bit too soft of a pedal for my taste.  All are OEM components.  I'm not sure what bore the manual drums had on my car but a smaller bore may have helped.

[AtlantaSteve]

What I like from brakes, especially on a performance vehicle is what they call "confidence inspiring."

The old 4 drums were not confidence inspiring.  You could eventually get the car to stop well, but you had to put so much leg on it that it wore you OUT.  I've also driven cars that had fine stopping ability, but the mushiness of the pedal just left you feeling antsy everytime you'd go to do a less aggressive stop.

The MOST confidence inspiring car I ever drove, no joke, was my dad's old 1976 Pinto 2.3 that had power disc/drums.  It had a nice, stiff pedal, but they were very easy to actuate, a little foot gave you a lot of stop, and you could easily slow the car down at a reasonable rate without feeling any "sponge" but when you nailed it in a panicstop, you'd get slung into the shoulderstrap hard.   GOD I miss that car.   We had so much fun that we shouldn't have had in that little blue pinto.  Learned how to drive stick AND abuse the handbrake in that car.

[PJ Moran]

I can't speak for the '65 - '66 designs.  I've had two '68's - one with power and one without.  I preferred the one with power.  The non-power were too hard.  But, the factory power brakes have way too much assist.  You can launch a passenger through the windshield with them if you're not careful.

I'm currently running hydroboost-powered 4-wheel Bullitt discs.  Awesome.

[RapidRabbit]

I am running manual granada front discs and stock rear drums on my 70. No problems stopping, it is much better than the front drums.

[AtlantaSteve]

Thanks all!  The Manual Master Cylinder (74 Maverick) has been ordered, will pick it up at Advance tomorrow morning.  They even price matched Rock Auto!!!  Thanks for whomever clued me in to that little trick.

Thanks!

Steve

[RyanG85]

  They even price matched Rock Auto!!!  Thanks for whomever clued me in to that little trick.

Thanks!

Steve

Your welcome! You cant get what you dont ask for!

[Starfury]

I converted to OE manual front discs a couple years ago using the CSRP kit.  I opted to leave out the power booster with the knowledge that I could always add one later if I felt I really needed it.  I've never had that feeling:)

I was ready for a much stiffer pedal than with my manual drums, but what I got was a much more usable pedal.  Initial stopping power only requires light pressure on the pedal, whereas before I had to stand on it to get the drums to do anything.  And as I progressively apply more force, the pedal moves down slightly and the brakes work harder.  With the old drums there wasn't much pedal height difference between light braking and heavy braking, just a difference in how hard you jammed your foot into the pedal.  At full lockup pedal pressure is probably about the same, but there's more of a difference between light braking pedal effort and 'oh crap I need to stop NOW' effort.

So basically, the manual discs are easier to modulate and keep just under the point of lockup, and they require less pressure in day to day driving than my old drums.  Plus, I get better feedback with the manual setup than I would with a vacuum booster.  And I'm not even sure I'd be able to run a booster with my engine vacuum anyway.

[monkeystash]

Steve, you are welcome to come over and drive my Fairlane around.  It has a Maverick master, '70 Mustang front discs, and stock rear drums.  Also has Shaun's stainless front lines.