what can I do to my motor?

[Dne']

I'll dedicate rainy days for motor work :dance! My motor was a running motor, but I never heard it!  Sure a motor can run, but did it make noise, burn oil, leak oil! So, I'm overhauling it.

Where can I have motor work done in Houston?

Any suggestions? I'd like to at least have the motor boiled out, new cam bearings, maybe bore it out, new pistons.  My husband said I could tweek the motor a bit and he wouldn't gripe about the money! So what can I do to this motor?

I know the usual external parts now: shorty headers, cam, intake/carb.

[Dne']

Well,  I found a place here in Houston.  A guy named Bruce which restores Mustangs for a living gave me his number.  Scroggins Machine shop.  He's supposed to call me tomorow.  See what he has to say :show!

[Sluggo]

Bobby at Scroggins built my Cleveland for my 71. He does good work and I highly recommend him.

If you're gonna bore it you might as well stroke it too. Bobby will have some good suggestions for you
and will do you a good job.

[Fast68back]

I know where theres a Mach in Houston with a pretty nice motor, if you want to do some midnight auomotive let me know. The owner has a bunch of guns, but can shoot worth a #^%$.

[Sluggo]

Good thing you didn't say sugar land or I'd be loadin' my guns.

[Dne']

 :pep I just got off the phone with Bobby, nice guy! He'll build me a long block using my block/heads, for about 1600.oo.  He said to stroke the motor would run up to about 6k$! Eeek!
I'm not feeling that great today, but I think I'll load all my motor stuff up and take it over to him.  I have it pretty well organized.  He said it would take about 3 weeks, and that's just fine!
I'm so glad to have found someone to do the machine work! :dance

[daveSanborn]

He said to stroke the motor would run up to about 6k$! Eeek!

I have to call  :bs: on this statement.  It sounds to me like he doesn't really want to do the work and is just "over-qouting" the job.  To stroke a motor requires the lower edge of the cylinder wall to be notched.... a novice with a mini-grinder could do this.... and then the simple installation of a stroker "kit", which sells for $1k (and up).

Re-conditioning your existing crankshaft.... turning/machining the rod and main journals should run around $200.  Reconditioning your existing connecting rods will run another couple hundred.  If your existing block needs to be overbored to clean up the cylinder walls, which it should.... even if it's only 0.010".... you'll need new pistons.

Personally, I don't think you're getting such a great deal.  What exactly are you going to get for $1600?

If it were me.... I'd ask him to hot tank the block, bore the cylinders out to whatever they need in order to clean them up, and then install new cam bearings.  Order yourself a $1k stroker kit and get busy installing it.  Pick out a cam and install it.  Install a fresh pair of Ford GT40 or other aftermarket heads and you'll be done with the whole motor for a little over $2k, but it'll be a LOT better than what I imagine his stock $1600 rebuild to be.

[Dne']

I found this guy on Ebay, Herb, he had 289 long block for sale, and he's here in Houston! So I called him.  Herb came over to my home to take a look at my motor. I won't go into detail about him.  I have my engine completely apart so he could inspect it.  He pulled out his measuring tools, He said first of all, The block is not a 289, it's a 302 out of a 71 model, and it's already been bored .40 over, and it has a light ridge, one cylinder has one hell of a scratch, so boring it anymore would be risky.  The heads are off of a '65 289, though they're rebuildable, they'd need a lot of work.

I really like this guy, he really went into detail about everything!  I asked him what should I do?  He can build me a near complete motor, (new pistons, cam(with a lope), Edlebrock, Holley carb., for 1900.oo, he said if I wanted it stroked, I think he said just a few hundred more dollars.

I emailed him and asked for a breakdown of what he's going to do, then I'll post that.
dne'

[daveSanborn]

The block is not a 289, it's a 302 out of a 71 model, and it's already been bored .40 over, and it has a light ridge, one cylinder has one hell of a scratch, so boring it anymore would be risky.  The heads are off of a '65 289, though they're rebuildable, they'd need a lot of work.

If the motor has already been overbored by 0.040..... and it has another "ridge"..... the block is IMO useless.  Sell it for scrap steel weight.  Your cylinder heads, although probably rebuildable, aren't really cost effective to do so unless you're building a "period correct" car.  Labor rates being what they are, it's usually better to just replace the heads with new ones than go through the expense of rebuilding.

Post the break-down from ole "Herb" and we'll take a look at it with you.

Dave

[Fast68back]

I found this guy on Ebay, Herb, he had 289 long block for sale, and he's here in Houston! So I called him.  Herb came over to my home to take a look at my motor. I won't go into detail about him.  I have my engine completely apart so he could inspect it.  He pulled out his measuring tools, He said first of all, The block is not a 289, it's a 302 out of a 71 model, and it's already been bored .40 over, and it has a light ridge, one cylinder has one hell of a scratch, so boring it anymore would be risky.  The heads are off of a '65 289, though they're rebuildable, they'd need a lot of work.

I really like this guy, he really went into detail about everything!  I asked him what should I do?  He can build me a near complete motor, (new pistons, cam(with a lope), Edlebrock, Holley carb., for 1900.oo, he said if I wanted it stroked, I think he said just a few hundred more dollars.

I emailed him and asked for a breakdown of what he's going to do, then I'll post that.
dne'

DNE, This sounds a lot better, but I still think you can find a bunch of places to get a stroked shortblock for less than 1900, I've seen them as low as 1300. A long block would run a bit more but would also include more.

[Dne']

This is what Herb wrote me:


Denee:  I have a list of components, I will be using in the 289 engine, being assembled for your 1967 Mustang.  Run this by the boys, and see what the input is!   HERB
           Materials list, supplied by EPWI from Houston.
 Pistons:  Sealed Power #273P flatop pistons, with #E-251K moly rings.
 Bearings:  Clevite "P" series
 Gaskets:  FelPro 260 series gasket set, with neoprene rear seal, and positive valve seals
 Valves:  NEW Engine Pro valves (1.78"x1.44") and new 90# seat pressure valvesprings
 Camshaft:  NEW Engine Pro camshaft (218`/224`@.050" with .465" lift- 110` lobe center)
 Pushrods:  NEW Pioneer #EP279 moly pushrods
 Lifters:  NEW Sealed Power hydralic lifters #HT-900
 Timing set:  NEW Engine Pro timing set #3014 silent link chain and gears
 Rod bolts:  ARP 5/16" rod bolts for strength and reliability
 Oil pump:  NEW Melling #M-68 pump with #68-S oil screen and #IS-68 driveshaft
 
          Machine work.
 Block:  Clean and magnaflux, then bore and hone 289 block .030" oversize (21-30 ra finish) 
 Crank:  Grind .020"/.020" undersize, chamfer oil holes and micropolish for long bearing life (8-10ra)
 Rods:  Install ARP bolts-resize big end to factory specs-match weigh rods (each end) as set
 Heads:  Clean and magnaflux-surface with CBN cutter- 3-angle seats in head- Hardened exhaust seats-replace guides (press-in iron guides)- positive valve seals- hardened 7` keepers- NEW 1.78"x1.44" stock valves- enlarge exhaust ports to gasket size, streamline exhaust guide for increased flow.
 Balance assembly:  Match weigh all rods and pistons- use correct bob weight to balance the crank, with flywheel and balancer installed.
 
        External components.
 Edelbrock #1406, 650cfm carb with electric choke and vacuum secondaries.
 Edelbrock #2121 Performer intake manifold
 Clean and install customer timing cover and balancer
 Chrome steel valve covers
 Reinstall customer distributor and provide NEW wires and sparkplugs.  (Denee, I will need to    pickup the distributor!)  Another option is NEW ProForm HEI style ready to run dist. for $175.00 extra.  This has the coil in the cap, and much HOTTER spark than the original.
 Install customer provided 5qt. aluminum oil pan and oil screen
 
 The price without optional ProForm HEI distributor, is $1929.00 including all the components and machining listed.  The appox. power output will be 270hp and 310ft.lbs. torque, very close to factory "K" code 289 engines from the 1960's.  Power range is 1500-5500 rpm's, with a small loping idle, able to provide appox. 15 inches idle vacuum, and maintain 700rpm idle in gear.  Recommend rear axle ratio, between 3.50-3.70 for best street performance.  Recommend premium grade unleaded fuel, to compliment the 9.5to1 compression ratio.  Use of 1 1/2" diameter headers, will provide the best power from the entire motor combo.
 Of course building a stroker motor will provide even better torque and acceleration, but is that the goal of the project?  I see this as a street cruiser, for Saturady night car shows, and showing a few of the late model cars, what a well built vintage car can do!
 Denee, I thank you for your business, and will provide the motor in the timeframe of 3 weeks.  If you feel a stroker motor is what you desire, lets talk!  Expect a 331cid stroker with aluminum heads, to cost appox. $3500.00, or an even bigger 347cid, to cost $3700.00.  The aluminum heads have the correct sized ports and valves, complimenting the added engine size.  Timeframe to build a stroker motor, is appox. 4 weeks. 
 The 289 will provide rapid acceleration, but a 347 will smoke the tires, until you have enough.
   Thanks again.  HERB  281-546-6232
 
 By the way, I have ASE Master Machinist cert. and love building restoration motors.
 
 

[daveSanborn]

Dne,

First off, this guy seems to me like the "real deal".  I'd go with him.

For your consideration....

-replace guides (press-in iron guides)

It's been a while since I rebuilt a set of heads, but as I remember we always used to use Brass press-in guides.  The Brass is a softer metal than steel and I thought provided better sealing/guide properties than Steel.  Ask him about this.  Technology may have changed on me, it's been a while.

You may want to upgrade the timing chain to either a double roller or even a positive (noisy) gear drive.  IMO, I love the sound of the Pete Jackson gear drives, almost gives the motor an old school "blower" sound.  If you're going to do it, now, not later, would be the time to do it.

Talk to him about the Oil Pump.  High volume/High pressure maybe?  Maybe a larger aftermarket 7 qt. Oil Pan instead of the stocker?

[Dne']

Thanks Dave for the added questions!  I sent him what you wrote.
I thought I had written something on here, but I guess I didn't.  I would think he wouldn't mind if you, or anyone had an engine question, he would be most certainly happy to help, he definitely seems like the helpful type.

HLGPER@comcast.net  his name is Herb.

dne'

[Dne']

Herb says:

"The guides I install, are cast iron, the same material as the iron cylinder head.  I prefer the IRON guides, to the BRONZE liners, that are only 1/32" wall thickness.   Iron guides have .125" wall thickness and remove the heat from exhaust valves better, providing longer life!
 
I hear the preferences of many people, and incorporate positive changes, to all my motors.  All of these suggestions are extra cost items, that will not improve the performance or reliability!   This is a street performance engine, that will easily deliver years of GREAT performance, without breaking the budget.
  Attached are a few photos, of the last 289 I built for a customers 1965 Sunbeam Tiger.  He opted for ProComp aluminum heads- 7qt. Cobra oil pan- completely built and ready for installation.  Price for this engine was $3700.00 + freight.  I really enjoyed this project, but get the same feeling from a near stock motor, installed in a vintage musclecar, rebuilt with TLC!"

[daveSanborn]

All of these suggestions are extra cost items, that will not improve the performance or reliability!

I do not agree with this, and it sounds to me like ole Herb is getting a little defensive.

My suggestions were intended as just that, suggestions.  I'm by no means trying to tell Herb (or you) what you should do.  As I originally stated, it looks to me like ole Herb is building a quality motor at a great price.

If it were me though, while the engine was completely disassembled and components were being replaced, I'd use this time to make a few upgrades.  While the gear drive is a "top shelf" unit and has a $250 price tag to go along with it, a quality double roller timing chain is, in my opinion a "performance and reliability" upgrade that can be installed rather cheaply.

Also, heat is the number one cause of engine failure.  Oil lubricates the rotating components reducing friction, thus reducing heat.  In the course of this, "heat transfer" occurs.  The oil absorbs the heat caused from the friction.

Place a quart of water in a pan and put it on the stove.  Crank the stove up to full blast and time how long it takes to bring the quart of water to a rolling boil.

Now place a gallon of water in a pan and repeat the above test.

Obviously, the quart of water boils faster.

Why?  With the quart of water, there is less capacity to absorb the heat.

This same basic idea is the reasoning for a 7 Quart oil pan.  It's not so that there is more oil to pump through the motor.... the pump doesn't know if there's one quart of oil in the pan or ten.... it's so that the larger capacity of oil (7 quarts vs. the traditional 5) will be able to stay cooler for a longer period of time.  Cooler oil equals better heat transfer.  The more heat transfer that occurs, the longer the engine will last.

IMO, if you're replacing the oil pan during the course of an engine rebuild, unless you're building a concours car, spending a few more dollars for a 7 quart pan is an obvious "performance and reliabilty" upgrade.

[Dne']

   :showWell then~ Anyway, I'm happy! :pep I bought the oil pan before anyone said what I should've bought, an aluminum finned, and I'll be happy with that.  As for the rest, it will be ok Dave.

Well, I have to get back in the garage! this block sanding is killing me!! :doh

[Midlife]

Well, I have to get back in the garage! this block sanding is killing me!! :doh

But you'll have such nice hands and pretty nails when you're done!   :jam

[joesgt281]

i don't know if you need any other help on your engine, but here are a number of them for sale in Houston:

http://www.westsidemustangs.com/forums/index.php?topic=82778.0

[ShadowLands]

Hate to dig up old threads but........

Why the hell would good ol' Herb buy NEW valves and only get them in stock size?  If he is going to do any port work to the heads then he should immediately upgrade the valve package to 1.84" intake/1.54" exhaust.  This is a no-brainer.  Opening the seats and valve pockets can be done with the same cutter.  Blending would take about four hours to finish both heads. 

Also, the iron guides are crap.  Notice he replied with "bronze liners" instead of a full bronze guide.  Liners are better than an iron guide but if you're pressing in new stuff then a bronze-manganese guide is the best thing to use. 

Oh yeah.....and Edelbrock carburetors suck.

Anyway.....hope things work out for you. 

[Dne']

I told my husband the other day, after we had bought our '06 Subaru Baja, not to look any more cause he'd be greatly disappointed when finding one for a lesser amount(which he did :doh).  Regarding my stang, I bought my motor, and right now, I'm happy with it :pep.  If the motor will run as good as it looks, and hopefully not drip oil all over the place, I'll probably be happy! I'm not looking anymore~ I bought what I have and that's that, no regrets.  His part was 1900.oo for all that he did~ I threw in the oil pan and valve covers, for a total of 2250.oo.  I think that's a fair price for what I got.  If the carb doesn't work well, I'll put another one(I've been great at wasting money lately).  Herb, I classify as a friend now and he wants to help me put the motor in when it's time, plus wants to be come over to help me from time to time(which I actually work better alone), but the thought is really sweet that someone actually offered to come over the help me. I have to beg my husband to help me when I need something that I can't do alone.
And I do appreciate your concern, and everyones concern, I find that to be sweet also! That's why I ask so many questions too.  A necessary learning thing for me.  Gosh, I'm just surrounded by sweet people~ I'm Blessed for sure, and it all started with Randy(sluggo) which I classify as my teacher! :pep  Funny, it'll probably be a year before actually cranking the thing!

[joesgt281]

Motor's looking good Dne.
Just my 2cents.....ditch the red dizzy cap for a black or gray one.
Just doesn't look good against the orange block.

[Dne']

Thank you for pointing that out Joe!  I wonder if they make a black one~ Gray would be ok though.
dne'

[joesgt281]

What kind of dizzy is that?
Does it have the HEI coil in the top of it?

[RustyRed]

Sportbike,

Who did you use to build your engine?

I am in Houston (Spring area) and starting to think about rebuilding my 289....in a '66 Coupe btw.

Have already picked up a Holley 4bbl and I am working on closing a deal on some ported GT40 heads.  From there I will obviously need a few other odds and ends such as cam, intake, etc, etc.

I spoke recently with Scroggins Machine and they could build it for me for about $1,500 if I showed up with a top end kit in hand or something along those lines.

Any advice (Houston area specific) for folks you have spoken with or actually used?

[Sluggo]

Rusty,

Welcome to StangFix.

You'll find that there is a lot of us from Houston.
I've used Scroggins many times and they do a good job.

Dne' used a cat named Herb, also local and gives him rave reviews.

Make a post in Gum Flapper's with a little bio info.

Again, Welcome