I am very pissed at myself. Gonna have to pull the Cleveland -maybe NOT!!

[cmayna]

This is a first for me for I have no one to blame but myself.  Now I'm starting to understand what's it like being human.  I should have studied more, asked more questions, etc. But  "oh well"......

In a nutshell, these manifolds were last used with a automatic transmission. The exit is pointing pretty horizontally towards the rear.  With the Zbar in relaxed position with the lower arm forward, the arm cuts right through the exhaust.  This lower arm get's so close to the exit opening that there is no way to fit a small 90 degree pipe, etc. The pipe would also need to be crimped.  This exit hole also faces someone outward aim very close to the steering box wanting to go between the steering box and the lower arm with a gap of about 1-1/2".

Here's my current set up. Note how horizontally the exhaust exits.




Here's a LH manifold on ebay supplied to me today by John of ORP.  Note how it points more toward the ground:

exhaust manifold


Here's some pics I took today showing the interference:


See how it points somewhat towards the steering box?
[smg id=3558]


Another angle:
[smg id=3557]

Thus I am planning to either find a single LH manual transmission Cleveland 4v manifold or at worst case another set.  No matter what I get, I'm going to be hosting yet another party but this time called "yank and drop" with us pulling the motor, swapping the manifold(s) and dropping the motor back in.

Crap!!! :po

[silverblueBP]

Crap man, you have to pull the motor to R&R the manifold???? That sucks Craig, but good for more friendly "face" time.


Are you sure Duane hasn't been secretly helping you?   :craz

[lethal289]

Thats a bummer, is it that tight with the shock tower that you cant get to the manifold with the engine in the car? Either way, that sucks craig...

[cmayna]

I will first attempt to pull the manifold without removing the motor but If I end up replacing both left and right and with the fact that I need to scrap off the copper RTV high temp gasket maker, it probably be much easier to do it with the motor pulled.   Need to have a few brews to ponder my next move.

[Sluggo]

Are your sure you can't unbolt the mount on that side and tilt the engine a bit to wrestle it out?

[blue65coupe]

Dude, I hope you don't have to pull it.  If so, better now than after everything else is hooked up.  I swear I didn't send my karma your way...and Mark.....I'm saving all my "assistance" for a trip to Kansas!!!!

[pprince]

How about fabricating an equalizer bar to fit?

Mustang Pony Cars just did this with the 71 Q code 4 speed convertible they are putting together for a customer.

[Starfury]

Ouch, my sympathies Craig.  Sounds like something I'd do...

[GrabberOrange69]

Bad news!  I wouldn't have guessed the manual trans manifolds were different,  WTF?!

You'll need more beer for the hoisting party....

[RyanG85]

How about fabricating an equalizer bar to fit?

+1..Was thinking same thing. With the money you already put into those manifolds, I think I would investigate that avenue first.

[Sacbill]

+1 on Sluggo's suggestion

[johnpro]

One other thing to contemplate would be ditching the z-bar and using a hydraulic clutch.  If you have the slave cylinder mounted on the firewall, you can route the hydraulic line any way you want.  In other words, no clearance issues with pretty much ANY exhaust.

[B67FSTB]

His clutch lever isn't set up to hydraulic
Dammed !! 

[guruatbol]

Craig, relax.  ditch the Z bar.  they suck!  I had one on my 67 and on a 66 I owned.  Back in the early 80s, I had to have a set of headers cut and modified with a plate that could be unbolted and the lower section of the header could be removed in order to get the headers I wanted in a 4 spd car.

I like John's solution!  Once you use a hydraulic clutch on that beast, you will never regret the decision to put it on.  It is just super nice.

That solves all you issues and you have some awesome looking exhaust manifolds.

Once you go hydraulic you'll never go back!

Mel

[69RestoRod]

I also think  hydraulic setup would be easier and cheaper in the long run. It's not like you're trying to go for originality points. Then you could sell the Z-bar and recoup some funds into the new setup.

[B67FSTB]

I also think  hydraulic setup would be easier and cheaper in the long run. It's not like you're trying to go for originality points. Then you could sell the Z-bar and recoup some funds into the new setup.

+1   but still need to change the clutch lever setup ... so .. trans and bell must go out.

[69RestoRod]

Yeah, but if he has the right jack he can do that solo. I've done it with an c-4 myself several times with the wrong jack.

[cmayna]

Nope, don't necessarily like the Hydraulic clutch set up.  I'd rather consider modifying the Z bar.   John of ORP also mentioned that this might be a choice but will take a lot of research and measuring.  Yesterday I had already considered modifying the bar by pushing the lower arm closer to the motor to allow more space between the lower arm and the steering box.  But when you do this, you distort the angle of the lower adjusting rod than connects between lower Zbar arm to clutch form.

I do NOT want to end up with a mickey mouse setup.  If I need to swap out the manifolds I will do so and hopefully recoup some of my new costs by selling the current manifolds. 

[B67FSTB]

As said.Think twice and do it once.You couldn't forsee this.

[garner67]

Craig, that sucks!

At least you have a ready, willing and able support crew at disposal. Just let me know when to be there.

Hang in there pal.

[JeffTepper]

Craig:

With as much fun as we had getting those motor mount bolts in, I suggest we look at alternatives to pulling the engine.

First, the least amount of work would be to find the "correct" manual trans manifold and swap it out;

Second would be headers that clear the stock Z bar and the steering box;

Third would be convert to Rack and Pinion steering and either a cable or hydraulic clutch;

Fourth would be to convert to an automatic trans(!!!);

Fifth,  whatever alternative you decide to follow, removing one motor mount bolt at a time and pivot the engine on the remaining bolt would give additional room to work while still retaining some semblance of motor mount alignemnt.

Sixth, when are going back in????

Jeff

[cmayna]

Michael,
Thanks for the support my friend and stay tuned.

Jeffrey,

1. I have already found a few correct exh mannies on line available.  A little more research before I blindly buy one.

2. Apparently the passenger side manny was never changed from 70 thru 74 thus I'm pretty good to keep it in.  They started pointing the exhaust more downward starting 71 for both manual and automatic application.  I still need to confirm if in fact from 71+ the same manny was used for both manual and automatic.  I have a feeling it is.

3. I do not want to go headers and feel I won't need to.

4. Go automatic?   That would be so  GO.......

5. As I told kbmwrs this am while laying under Shag  I think I could remove the driver's manny by simply removing the steering box (thank GOD I did not install the steering column yet), disconnect the manny bolts and drop it down between the frame rail and motor.  By pivot the motor on the RH motor mount would possibly give me a little more room but I have to consider if I'll be able to clean out the old copper gasket goop correctly and then apply the new goop to the new manny and wrestle it back up into place without smearing it all over everything before I get it into final resting place.

6.  Keep in mind that I am swapping out the T5 shifter thus it the whole assembly was out not only could I do a much better job in replacing the manifold via a torque wrench, I could also swap out the shifter much easier.

7.  We can all have a meeting of the NorCal minds about the options  on my new party day called "yank and drop" which wont happen for a couple+ weeks.

Comment:  I did re-look into the idea of modifying the Zbar's low arm location, etc, but I really don't any decent mod would work allowing the exhaust to squeeze between the lower Zbar arm and the steering box without reducing the pipe's diameter.  Also the exhaust pipe would be right next to the steering box. Way too much heat for my likens.   Thus why I have decided to do it right and find the correct manny.

[daveSanborn]

Sorry to hear of your troubles Craig.  I never would have guessed that the left side manifold differed between auto and manual trans cars.

Remember that it could always be worse....

After building my entire '66.... including paint..... on a custom one piece frame.... when I went to install the motor I found that the frame was ill-designed/built and the front frame rails were 1" too high.  What a PITA that was......  I had to cut out the front frame rails and lower them 1" inch.  It was a MAJOR step backwards!

[guruatbol]

I understand your decision. 

but I have to consider if I'll be able to clean out the old copper gasket goop correctly

OK, when you get the old mannie out, take some WD40 or carb cleaner or some kind of solvent you are comfortable with and spray it in the location of the goop, use 80 grit sand paper or a Scotch green pad, with a gloved hand clean it off with your hand.  Steel woll or brass wool will work as well.

To reapply use a gloved hand and apply by hand.  If you are careful and as detail oriented as I know you are, you should be fine!

Hang in the Craig.  I wish I was there to help you!

Mel

[daveSanborn]

I had a blown drivers side exhaust manifold gasket on my '70 351 4V.  I disconnected, but couldn't remove the manifold from the car.  I didn't try to unbolt the drivers side motor mount and lift the motor to gain clearance.  There was BARELY enough room to get the old gasket off, clean the mating surfaces and re-install a new gasket.  It can be done with the motor still in the car (at least in a '70 it can).  While the manny is disconnected from the head it will be floating around in there and may scratch some shock tower paint.  If the motor is only installed on it's mounts and not fully hooked up, it'll probably be a lot easier to just lift the motor out for an hour or so.