EFI, what do I do?

[67 evil eleanor]

I've been looking at several options for an EFI for the other halfs 65. The most critical thing is that it has to start and run VERY smooth like a modern car. So whats the best solution to do this? The engine is a 302 with a lumpy cam and world products jr heads. 8.5 compression and a Tremec TKO tranny, A/C and power steering. I am hanging a pair of small turbos under the car and plan on 8 to 10 lbs of boost. I have beat my head for the last couple of weeks and need to make some plans so that hopefully I can get it in paint in a few weeks.  ~???

[daveSanborn]

Why complicate your life?  Can't you just use the tried and true Ford EFI system?  Are there drawbacks to applying the "Keep It Simple Stupid" rule when running turbo's on an EFI SBF?

[Starfury]

Lumpy cams and forced induction don't cooperate.  Lumpy cams have a lot of valve overlap, which is fine for a NA engine that likes to wind up.  Low-end torque and idle suck due to that valve overlap, but you don't care about that.  With the same cam with forced induction, you can end up pushing a lot of extra air/fuel out of the exhaust valve before it closes.  This makes for an inefficient engine.

I've gotten pretty good with cam specs for NA v8's, but I don't know enough to recommend a cam for a turbo setup.  I'd call Comp Cams or Clay Smith and ask for a custom grind quote.  Have EVERYTHING you know about your car ready in front of you, because they'll ask about it.

As for EFI, you're going to have to find a setup that will cooperate with your turbos.  I imagine a computer in a NA setup would freak out when the MAP sensor reads 10psi over atmospheric:P  I don't know of any off the top of my head, but maybe someone else here does...

[68EFIvert]

I have a Ford EFI system on my car and am putting 10 lbs of boost through it.  No problems for me.  I did have a custom chip put in the car to make the most out of my system.   I have considered doing turbos for my next build and have followed you build on on of the other forums.  Nice job by the way.  I think I would look at doing the same computer system again.  I used the wiring harness from fordfuelinjection.com so that I could eliminate all the smog crap easily. 

As far as cams go if I were to do it again I would go over to andersonfordmotorsports.com and choose one of their cams.  There are a few different grinds available for boosted applications depending on what characteristics you want.

Harness site
http://rjminjectiontech.com/

Anderson Ford Motorsports
http://www.andersonfordmotorsport.com/

[67 evil eleanor]

Dave, somehow I always start with the KISS rule, and along the way it gets lost. I have made several phone calls and researched a lot of different systems, it always seems to be a negative hidden in the shadows. The engine is apart and now is the perfect time to swap the cam as I have new pistons and rods to go in. I just like having all my ducks in a row (and though I did) untill I hit this snag. I had ordered an Professional Products EFI kit and it was to be picked up this past weekend at a car show. I called the vender Wednesday to make sure that he had the kit in hand. His reply was it had to be dropped shipped from PP. When I placed the order I was told (by the vendor) that PP had one unit in stock and if I wanted it they could have it here in 2 days. I ordered it over 6 weeks ago and secured it with a credit card. Anyway after a verder shoots a lie at me, I am done with them. Maybe its a sign of good luck that he did'nt have it as since then I have read about several hangups with people trying to get their systems, not to mention some problems they have had along once recieved. Also I understand that most all the parts are floated over from China. SO, "EFI VERT" if your system is performing good and free of issues, maybe you can give me a recepie. It needs to be very detailed since I am still learning the Fuel Injection deal. Oh yeh, after the failure with the PP efi, I made several attempts to contact Edelbrock and inquire about their "Pro Flow 2" system. Their brag is its designed to work with boosted engines and mind its manners. So far after 45 minutes of waiting with no human to talk to, I have just about said to heck with them. If I have trouble along the way then how do I get answers. I still have not ruled out a bolt on system (its in the budget), but it seems they all have some sort of drawback and are bashing each other in their ads. I am still open to any and all ideas and maybe having several heads will keep me from making a costly mistake.

[daveSanborn]

I used the wiring harness from fordfuelinjection.com so that I could eliminate all the smog crap easily.

I used the same harness on my car and was impressed with the simplicity of it.  A true "plug and play" harness with very clear instructions for installing EFI into a classic. 

[68EFIvert]

SO, "EFI VERT" if your system is performing good and free of issues, maybe you can give me a recepie. It needs to be very detailed since I am still learning the Fuel Injection deal.

I started out with a junk yard donor engine, computer, sensors and harness.  I quickly learned I wasn't going to modify a donor car harness so I looked into options.  Fordfuelinjection.com seemed to have the easiest install and came pre-wrapped so I went that way.  The only problem I have had with the harness was the spout connector by the dizzy had a bad connection.  Other than that it was literally just a couple hours to have the whole engine wiring done.  :icon_thumleft:  I thought that was going to be the worst part but was the easiest.

As far as the engine goes here is my setup.  302 bored .030 to yield 306 ci.  Stock bottom end with the exception of forged pistons.  If I were to do it again I would have stroked it to 331/347 to give me the piece of mind of having better rods, lighter pistons and a stronger crank.  The cam I have now is a Ford E303.  It gives me a pretty smooth idle and if it were not for the faint whine of the blower one would have no idea.  Looking back if I were have know the build would have gone as far out of control as it has I would have gone with a Anderson Ford Blower cam B21 or B31, depending on which rockers I used. 

As far as the heads I have AFR 165's with Crane 1.7 roller rockers.  I am using a Professions Products Typhoon intake (If I were to do it again I would go with an intake that would give me a higher RPM range like a Performer RPM or Trick Flow Track Heat.  Both would be a better choice with a different cam and stronger bottom end.  The PP intake works very well with my existing combo though.)  I am running 42 lb injectors, a 70 mm PP throttle body and of course a Vortech V2SQ blower with a smaller pulley.  The dizzy is a stock Ford unit and I was advised from my tuner to leave it in there.  I am using MSD components for the spark side.  I got a Boost timing retard box with the blower and am using an MSD coil with 6al box.  I am using spark plugs 1 level lower than what AFR recommend for a NA build.  IIRC they are Autolite XX23.

The tuner did all the computer work for me and the bill including the cost of the chip was $600.  Not bad as long as no other problems come up.

For fuel supply I have 6an hose and am using the fuel pump from the Vortech kit.  It is plenty to supply my engines needs.  I am using a 5/16" return line that goes in at the plug for the drain on the tank.  I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is.  If you need more info or different info let me know.

Now that you know what I am running here is what the engine puts out.  I have 402 rwhp and 414 rwtq.  I ahve been told that equates close to 475 hp and 490 tq at the crank.  Not bad for a somewhat tame 306.  I feel that with the changes I listed about I could get very close to 475-500 rwhp. 
Darreld

[67 evil eleanor]

Thanks guys, it clears up a lot of issues. It seems the older I get, the dumber I get as well. I have a bad habit of over thinking too much and adding problems to what should be easy.

[daveSanborn]

I have a bad habit of over thinking too much and adding problems to what should be easy.

You're in good company then, because most of us do the same darn thing.  I catch myself "overthinking" issues all of the time.... I (eventually) step back and ask myself "what's the simplest way of getting this done?"  "What would a person with limited resources do?"  Often times I've found that I was WAY overthinking the issue and the simplest way is many times the best way forward.

[68EFIvert]

speaking of way over thinking.  I thought about the best way to change my rear main seal and has turned into changing my tranny to a T56 6 speed.  Hmmmmmmmmmm.  That doesn't make much sense does it. 

[daveSanborn]

That doesn't make much sense does it.

Ah, Nope!

You'll be cursing that decision come this Winter and then by Spring it will be nothing but a distant memory the first time you're on the Interstate and slip that new tranny into 6th gear.

[68EFIvert]

Evil, I just got a new issue of Hot Rod Magazine in the mail today and the issue is dedicated to aftermarket EFI systems.  You should go pick up a copy if you don't already have it.

Darreld

[67 evil eleanor]

As normal, I am a day late and a dollar short. I spent some time on the phone with a Edelbrock tech today and have made the decision to order their Pro Flow 2 EFI with a couple of upgrades, 36# injectors and another fuel rail so that I can use a boost reference pressure regulator. The tech seemed to know his stuff and was quick as a cat with his answers. Last week I ordered some rods and pistons for the engine and I may go to 10 lbs on the boost as the engine should take it. It did bite the wallet pretty hard but I think (here we go again) it will do all that is needed. By the way hows it rated?

[68EFIvert]

I did not have a chance to read the articles about the different EFI systems yet but I will post an update when I do.  I did see a different Edelbrock setup for a SBC that increased power, lowered torque slightly but increase mileage from 10.8 mpg to 16.5 mpg.  They claim you would recover your investment in 3 years IIRC. 

So how much power do you think you may be making.  Those 36lb injectors may be your limiting factor especially since you are going to stroke it.  Just a thought before you get to far.  I am no expert and don't claim to be so take my info for what it is worth. 

Here is a link for an injector calculator.

http://www.injector.com/injectorselection.php

For instance my engine puts out about 475+/- flywheel hp.  I have 42 lb injectors which are good for slightly less than 540 fwhp.  The custom tune adjusts the flow.  If I do what I really want in the future my current injectors and chip can be reused and reprogrammed for the new setup without any large expense.  Just a thought.

Darreld

[67 evil eleanor]

I just bought the magazine and the article looks interesting. The goal is about 500 HP and keep it streetable (a must). The featue in the magazine is on the Pro Flo XT. It looks darn good and I wish it was available (soon to be i hear). It seems that all do their job fairly well.