Interesting thread I found on TKO's

[Starfury]

http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1156419

I had originally wanted to go with a TKO 600 behind my 331, but after reading that, I'm a little skeptical.  I want to turn my car into something I can open track without any problems, but that doesn't make me very confident.  I'm almost wondering if it wouldn't be better to go with a beefed up T5 or even a T56, although the latter could prove to be much more expensive.

[tarafied1]

http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1156419

I had originally wanted to go with a TKO 600 behind my 331, but after reading that, I'm a little skeptical.  I want to turn my car into something I can open track without any problems, but that doesn't make me very confident.  I'm almost wondering if it wouldn't be better to go with a beefed up T5 or even a T56, although the latter could prove to be much more expensive.

I have broken a few T5's in my day... that was behind a mild small block. I didn't race it but it was my DD so it saw a lot of time on the road. Maybe if you had two T5's, one always ready to swap in???

[Starfury]

Hehe.  I'm not doing it soon, but when I get to it, I don't want to have to do it twice.  It'll probably pull double duty as a driver and open track car when I'm finished with it, so I want something that will last.  Astroperformance has 450ft-lb rated T5 kit that may do the trick, but I'm skeptical about their power ratings.  They don't say anything about using different input/output shafts, which I've heard are the main weaknesses on T5's.

[joesgt281]

Well this is really making me re-think a TKO for my 67.

Is there a tranny that's universally accepted as terrific for road racing at 425 lb-ft plus?

Keisler has come out with a Borg Warner T45 based tranny rated at 425 lb-ft.
http://www.keislerauto.com/index.php?/1968-1982-corvette-5-speed-classicfit-kit-t45rs-425.html

[68EFIvert]

I can say that I love the T56 in my car.  It shifts smoothly and it is great having your choice of which overdrive you want to use.  5th gear is great for going 55-65 and 6th if you are going faster than that.

[Starfury]

Well this is really making me re-think a TKO for my 67.

Is there a tranny that's universally accepted as terrific for road racing at 425 lb-ft plus?

I did some digging today at work and found a couple options:

1) AstroPerformance's T5.  As I said, not sure on the actual ability to handle torque vs their claims, but if they can hold 450ft-lbs, that should be just fine.

2) American Powertrain also offers 400, 500, and 600hp T5 builds.  No idea what they do to make them stronger.

3) American Powertrain offers a T56 conversion setup for classic Mustangs.  No idea of price, but you can get them rated anywhere from 425 to 1000hp.  Having driven my roommate's (now totalled) '97 WS6 T/A with a T56 and Pro 5.0 shifter, I can tell you that it shifts very smooth.  I just don't know what I'd do with a 6th gear.  The only real reason 6th was useful on the T/A was because it could stick to the road at 140mph.  My car can't.  Unless I could space 1-5 really close and use really short rear gears, I just don't think I'd touch 6th.

[monkeystash]

I just don't know what I'd do with a 6th gear.  The only real reason 6th was useful on the T/A was because it could stick to the road at 140mph.  My car can't.  Unless I could space 1-5 really close and use really short rear gears, I just don't think I'd touch 6th.

Run 4.11 or lower gears...then use 6th gear.

I have a T5 with G-Force internals to run behind the 408W I'm building.  I'm not concerned, especially on radials.  The 26 spline input shaft and the beefier gears hopefully create a pretty robust tranny.  I didn't get it, but you can also option a 9310 steel mainshaft.  
http://www.gforcetransmissions.com/tran_gt-5.asp

[Starfury]

The problem with 4.11 (or shorter) rear gears and a 2.95 first is that first is just about useless.  Why have 6 gears at that point?

I was originally planning on a TKO 600 (2.95 first, 0.64 OD) and 3.73 or 3.91 rear gears.  First would still be useful and fifth would keep me at a decent rpm on the freeway.

[monkeystash]

The problem with 4.11 (or shorter) rear gears and a 2.95 first is that first is just about useless.  Why have 6 gears at that point?

My DD for a decade was a fox body with a 3.35 1st T5, 4.10s out back, and a S-trim blown 302.  1st gear was short, but totally usable.  

On the other end of the spectrum, my GTO has a M-21 close ratio with a 2.20 1st gear with 3.90s out back, and it sucks, even with the torque of the 400.  It really needs 4.33s for that 2.20 1st to be acceptable.    

[joesgt281]

3) American Powertrain offers a T56 conversion setup for classic Mustangs.  No idea of price, but you can get them rated anywhere from 425 to 1000hp. 

I'm sure the T56 is a bit more, but I have a quote from AP for a TKO 500 conversion and it's about $4500.
It looks to be very very complete.
It also includes about a $400 adder for a hydraulic throwout bearing setup.
But other than positioning the shifter to fit our consoles, and trimming the top for tunnel clearance, I think they are stock trannys (ie, still prone to shifiting issues).
The same kit from Keisler Engineering is about the same price.

I'm hearing good things about D&Ds T56 Magnum, but you're starting with just the tranny, not a kit.  Price is around $2800.
http://www.ddperformance.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=185cPath=107_124

[daveSanborn]

I installed a TKO600 kit from DarkHorse Performance into my sons '68FB behind a built 351W w/Edelbrock RPM top end.

He dogs the heck out of the car.... shifting at RPM's a LOT higher than I ever would.... and we've had not one problem.

[Fast68back]

Any mods to the tunnel Dave?

[joesgt281]

not finding anything on the interweb for Dark Horse Performance.  Are they still in business?

[daveSanborn]

Any mods to the tunnel Dave?

The mini tower on TKO500/600's is typically just a hair off towards the passenger side of the tunnels shifter opening.  I didn't have to, but to prevent the rubber dust boot on the mini-tower from getting pinched with the side of the opening I trimmed about 1/4" of the sheet metal off.

[daveSanborn]

Dark Horse is a pretty small outfit that is owned operated by Fred and his wife Linda.  Fred is much more of a car guy than a website designer.  His old website was barely useable and he probably dissolved it.

His contact info is within the below link....


http://www.stangnet.com/tech/t5swap.html

[gotstang]

Dark Horse is a pretty small outfit that is owned operated by Fred and his wife Linda.  Fred is much more of a car guy than a website designer.  His old website was barely useable and he probably dissolved it.

His contact info is within the below link....


http://www.stangnet.com/tech/t5swap.html

DHP always stuck me as being pretty good at their shit. I've always had a theory that the better the web designer for a company liker that, the worse the company, unless they were big-time. Not that Keisler would be a good example lol. That guy is such a douchebag.

[joesgt281]

Not that Keisler would be a good example lol. That guy is such a douchebag.

That's not the first time i've heard this on this quest.
What's the story on him?

[Starfury]

How high is 'high,' Dave?  (and no, not that kind of high)  I'd like to be able to shift at 6200 and not have to worry about things getting FUBAR'd.

I'm kinda leaning more towards a T56 now.  The gear spacing for 1-4 is much closer than I thought, which is basically what I'm shooting for.  I could run 4.11's and be fine on the street (or the track), and 5th and 6th would allow me to cruise on the freeway all day.

[Fast68back]

T56 will take some tunnel mods I believe. Stole this picture from the CLASSIC DESIGN CONCEPTS website, they build that flashback Mustang from Dynacorn shells

[gotstang]

That's not the first time i've heard this on this quest.
What's the story on him?

Their standard sales schtick is classic "bad used car salesman" type crap and God help you if you make a negative comment about them on the internet or gene will show up to argue and their sales tactics get even more extreme. Oh, and they have absolutely no compunction about lying. For example, their "super duper, specially machined for a direct fit" TKO500 is bog-standard as far as I've been able to tell. Apparently, according to ole gene, I'm an ignorant bully who has never laid eyes on their stuff, and Sanborn ain't much better. Too bad he's wrong.

[daveSanborn]

6000 RPM shifts with no problems.

Sons car has a 3.90 geared rearend and 1st gear is damn near useless.  I wouldn't go with a 4.11 if it's going to see 90% street driving.  If anything, I'd go with a numerically lower gear ratio such as a 3.50 or at the lowest end a 3.25.

The T-56 should require extensive tunnel modifications in order to maintain acceptable driveline angles, yet Darreld installed one in his '68 only by using RM adjustable (lowered) engine mounts.

What's the story on him?

He is a salesman for the aforementioned company.  He googles the company name and then joins internet forums to tout/defend his companies product.  He's more argumentative than I am.... if that's possible.  I'd refrain from mentioning his companies name or else he will show up here.

Three years ago we purchased the TKO swap kit from DarkHorse and it was approx. $2800.  It included everything from the engine block plate to the shifter ball and everything in between.  The only additional items we had to procure were the driveshaft (Inland Empire), a plug for the mechanical speedometer port on the trans (Steeda) and a pigtail to connect the electric speedometer (local Ford dealer).  The kit included the at that time available JMC hydraulic clutch kit.

[joesgt281]

The last thing I want to have to deal with is missed shifts, and the cons outweigh the pros in my survey of internet stories on Tremecs.  There's a second issue I've heard about where they will essentially lock up and you have to pull the top cover off and mess with the shift forks to get them back in place (necessitating you pulling the tranny, or opening up the trans tunnel).  Here's a very interesting article on the subject (the most interesting part coming at the end  :rofl )

http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41439

I've almost come full circle on this.  My buddy who runs in vintage racing is required to run a toploader 4-speed and he says his is bulletproof.  His isn't just any tranny though, it's built by David Kee in San Antonio, and is literally a brand new tranny, built to take anything you can throw at it.  Kee even does his own castings of the cases.  Price wise, they're in the $2000 range, which is in the neighborhood of a TKO-600.

http://www.davidkeetoploaders.com/toploaderpricelist.htm

The reason I'm considering going this way is since they were original equipment, they're a direct fit which eliminates alot of the conversion work and costs for a Tremec which include:
- modifiying the tranny tunnel or milling the trans
- special cross member
- shortened driveshaft
- speedometer adapter
- etc

What you give up is the wider range, but this may not be that big of a deal to me.
My car is used mainly for in-town cruises and track days.
If I match my rear gear for that, it may not fair well on the highway.
My solution to that could be to just keep a spare pumpkin for my 9" with highway gears in it and swap it for the rare highway trip.
Not the best solution, for sure, but something I'm thinking about.

[Starfury]

I've always kinda kept that idea on the backburner.  One of the guys on mustangforums has a 383 stroker with a David Kees toploader behind it and loves it.

Still, I want to be able to drive my car on the freeway regularly:(

[Fast68back]

Also interesting to note that the dynacorn shells have speaker holes in the kick panels. I had heard they had that rib that runs over the tunnel connecting the seat pans.

[joesgt281]

I'm corresponding with Tony Sarvis at Astroperformance and here's some of what he has to say:

"The A-5 Package (Part#NA5-6770-HSU) is a great option.  The A-5 Transmission
will hold up to 550 Torque @ Flywheel and will shift just like any Standard
1985-95 Ford Mustang 5.0L T-5 Transmission. The A-5 may make a bit more
noise due to the Helix Angle Pitch of the Teeth, but ultimately it is one of
the only 5 Speeds that fits the Tunnel and requires minimal modification. A
Tremec TKO-600 is a bit stronger (600 Ft. Lbs. of Torque Capable), but you
usually have to modify the Tunnel to fit the larger girth where the
transmission attaches to bellhousing.  Plus, the TKO-500/600 have issues
shifting above 5,200 RPM from the factory.  We have an upgrade referred to
as a Sure Shift Upgrade that helps get them to shift closer to 6,000 RPM.
The Upgrade & TKO Price alone are $2,550 before any of the other parts
needed to make the swap.

I sell several A-5 Packages for 65-73 Ford Mustang 3 or 4 speed Vehicles
looking to convert to Overdrive.  I think the shifting characteristics and
lightweight design of the T-5 makes it the better option. All you have to
remember is that the package on the site doesn't include the Upgraded 26
Spline Clutch needed."