Author Topic: 5.0 block dilemma (Read 533 times)

coupster · « **on:** January, 05, 2012, 04:27:40 PM »

Hello to all, first post, although I have been lurking for a year or so. I have a car I need help with. My friend bought a 65 fastback from a dealer. Unknown history, car is 85% complete-restomod project. Motor/trans/interior/paint appear clean and fresh. E7TE block & AOD. It has an autozone remanufactured points distributor and Holley carb. I have not verified if this is a hydraulic roller motor or not and I am worried that there may be an issue with the cam gear & distributor. I pulled the distributor, but couldn't get it out because the oil pump shaft is stuck in the distributor, and of course, either the pump shaft was installed incorrectly or the crappy washer slid down the shaft. I was able to get the distributor to rise up out of the block just high enough to see the top of the distributor gear and it appears to be a cast gear. I think this because the surface looked "cast" or rough like an engine block, and did not appear "machined". I know that I will probably have to drop the oil pan since the only way to get the dist. out is to pull it an make the pump shaft fall into the oil pan. I was hoping to avoid this. When this shaft problem was discovered, I put the distributor back so the car would not be disabled.I want to get rid of the points, and pertronix is the cheapest route to electronic ignition...But if the distributor gear is incorrect, and I have to replace points and gear, I might as well go the duraspark route. And I can't do that w/o knowing about roller motor or flat tappet. Any suggestions on how to verify w/o dropping pump shaft?

67 Fastback · « **Reply #1 on:** January, 05, 2012, 04:31:04 PM »

An e7 block no matter what the block came from is a roller ready block. That's not saying that the cam in that is a roller, just the block is a roller block. Look in the intake valley and you can tell right away what cam is in it.

Bill

tarafied1 · « **Reply #2 on:** January, 05, 2012, 04:55:49 PM »

I'm no expert but I was under the impression that roller cams need a special distributor gear and the only non-EFI distributor that will fit is the 85 GT 5.0 "carb" distributor. If that's true, the cam is not a roller or they modified the distributor.

coupster · « **Reply #3 on:** January, 05, 2012, 04:57:33 PM »

Thanks for the quick response, but I am trying to avoid taking this running motor apart... if possible. I may have to. I would like to believe that whoever built this motor/car did things right...but I have found SOOOOO many things wrong that I am beginning to doubt all of it. I pulled the starter a month ago to find the E7TE block number...but did not decode any other numbers at that time. My understanding is that E7TE blocks could be in mustangs, crown vic's, F150's etc. and Only stangs in 87 were All rollers...trucks & Crown Vic's are flat tappets??? is this right? Can it be either way..roller or non-roller. Is this correct?

tarafied1 · « **Reply #4 on:** January, 05, 2012, 05:04:36 PM »

Ford made non HO roller cam engines and those could be in anything that the 5.0 was available in. The non HO version would have lower compression and different intake, stuff like that but the block could be used to make a HO or higher HP engine.

coupster · « **Reply #5 on:** January, 05, 2012, 05:12:44 PM »

I thought those non-HO motors were not hyd. roller cam motors? I have no clue really...I have read lots of conflicting stuff

tarafied1 · « **Reply #6 on:** January, 05, 2012, 05:17:30 PM »

my buddy bought a 87 Lincoln 5.0 that had a non-HO roller cam engine. I have read that Ford made late model non HO 5.0 with both flat tappets and roller cams. I don't know how to tell without taking it apart.

67 Fastback · « **Reply #7 on:** January, 05, 2012, 05:18:18 PM »

Yes, non HO motors were flat tappet, but the block itself is a roller block... clear as mud?

Bill

67 Fastback · « **Reply #8 on:** January, 05, 2012, 05:19:42 PM »

Quote from: tarafied1 on January, 05, 2012, 05:17:30 PM

my buddy bought a 87 Lincoln 5.0 that had a non-HO roller cam engine. I have read that Ford made late model non HO 5.0 with both flat tappets and roller cams. I don't know how to tell without taking it apart.

I don't know anyway to do it without looking in the intake valley, it should have a spider hold down if it's roller or the lifters will have a link bar tying them together.

Bill

tarafied1 · « **Reply #9 on:** January, 05, 2012, 05:20:48 PM »

Quote from: 67 Fastback on January, 05, 2012, 05:18:18 PM

Yes, non HO motors were flat tappet, but the block itself is a roller block... clear as mud?

Bill

if it was a non HO, that would explain how the points distributor fit...

coupster · « **Reply #10 on:** January, 05, 2012, 05:25:12 PM »

Here is a pic of the car in question....just to give you a little something. I am working on getting a few of my pics in my sig...eventually

coupster · « **Reply #11 on:** January, 05, 2012, 05:30:56 PM »

Dang....I'm feeling like this is gonna be a can of worms.

66gt350 · « **Reply #12 on:** January, 05, 2012, 05:31:40 PM »

Quote from: tarafied1 on January, 05, 2012, 05:20:48 PM

if it was a non HO, that would explain how the points distributor fit...

Roller or non-roller...the dizzy doesn't care what the cam is or what it's made from. You just have to make sure to run the correct gear on the dizzy. I've run both efi and non-efi dizzy's on my current motor. I just had to yank the cast gear off and install the correct one for the roller cam.

I thought that the non-HO motors were roller after '86 for cars, and the trucks kept the flat tappets until around '92...

tarafied1 · « **Reply #13 on:** January, 05, 2012, 05:39:30 PM »

Quote from: 66gt350 on January, 05, 2012, 05:31:40 PM

Roller or non-roller...the dizzy doesn't care what the cam is or what it's made from. You just have to make sure to run the correct gear on the dizzy. I've run both efi and non-efi dizzy's on my current motor. I just had to yank the cast gear off and install the correct one for the roller cam.

okay, I guess that makes sense. I knew the "gear" was different for roller cams. I put an 85 HO distributor in my 94 Cobra 5.0 with a 4V intake and carb. Just dropped it in.

coupster · « **Reply #14 on:** January, 05, 2012, 05:57:16 PM »

I guess at this point, my buddy is going to have to decide between:
1. running distributor he's got- w/ points or pertronix and assume all is right
2. pull intake, verify cam, pull distributor, verify gear, drop oil pan, R&R shaft, and then decide how to upgrade ignition.
Dang!

coupster · « **Reply #15 on:** January, 05, 2012, 06:00:06 PM »

Oh and he could also run a bronze dist.gear...but not on the street, or he could pony up for a composite gear that is supposed to be compatible w/ all cams...but no idea of cost or where to purchase? Well at least I can suggest 4 options!

67 Fastback · « **Reply #16 on:** January, 05, 2012, 06:01:29 PM »

Quote from: coupster on January, 05, 2012, 06:00:06 PM

Oh and he could also run a bronze dist.gear...but not on the street, or he could pony up for a composite gear that is supposed to be compatible w/ all cams...but no idea of cost or where to purchase? Well at least I can suggest 4 options!

Steel gear may also work for him. I plan to run a bronze gear on the street, just need to make sure the gear meshes correctly and it should last for quite a while.

Bill

coupster · « **Reply #17 on:** January, 05, 2012, 06:11:46 PM »

Yeah I was planning on a Autozone duraspark distributor from an 85 GT 5 speed, Fomoco box, coil and wiring to upgrade. I can choose steel or cast gears...and that's where it began.

apollard · « **Reply #18 on:** January, 06, 2012, 06:31:02 AM »

Given that the block has been opened before, the only real way to know if the current cam is roller is to open up the lifter valley as stated before.

68EFIvert · « **Reply #19 on:** January, 06, 2012, 08:09:54 AM »

I have a couple ideas you could chase down before taking the top of the engine off. I am not sure if they are correct but if so could save you some time. I know the firing order is different on my roller cam engine. It runs a 351 order not the 302 firing order. The other thing I think could be different is pushrod length. Roller lifters are higher than flat tappet lifters and should result in shorter pushrods. Pull a valve cover and measure a pushrod then do a little internet searching. IIRC my pushrods were 6.8" long. I hope these give you a couple ideas to chase down before pulliing the intake.

apollard · « **Reply #20 on:** January, 06, 2012, 08:30:40 AM »

If he's got stock Ford components, the firing order would be different. However, Comp and many others make std firing order roller cams. Also, the base circle of the cam can affect pushrod legnth, so not sure that will help much.

You might could pull a pushrod and shine a light down the pushrod hole. Not sure how much you might see, but if you see the dogbones or a link bar you know you have a roller cam.

66gt350 · « **Reply #21 on:** January, 06, 2012, 09:05:19 AM »

Quote from: 68EFIvert on January, 06, 2012, 08:09:54 AM

I have a couple ideas you could chase down before taking the top of the engine off. I am not sure if they are correct but if so could save you some time. I know the firing order is different on my roller cam engine. It runs a 351 order not the 302 firing order. The other thing I think could be different is pushrod length. Roller lifters are higher than flat tappet lifters and should result in shorter pushrods. Pull a valve cover and measure a pushrod then do a little internet searching. IIRC my pushrods were 6.8" long. I hope these give you a couple ideas to chase down before pulliing the intake.

The firing order won't tell you much, the HO cam (and the Ford Motorsport cams, such as the B303, E303, F303, X303...etc) has the 351 firing order, where the non HO cams had the 302 firing order.

Quote from: coupster on January, 05, 2012, 04:27:40 PM

I was able to get the distributor to rise up out of the block just high enough to see the top of the distributor gear and it appears to be a cast gear.

I just went back and read your first post, and looking at the top of the dizzy gear won't be an indication of type, since both should be a machined surface. If you were able to pull out the dizzy far enough to see the lower part where the roll pin goes, then you could get an idea of cast or steel. Cast gears will be rough in this area, where as the steel gear will be machined smooth.

Really, the only way to know for sure is to yank the intake and see the type of lifters.

coupster · « **Reply #22 on:** January, 06, 2012, 09:58:29 AM »

I don't remember the firing order off the top of my head... but I may try peeking in the pushrod hole to see what I can see...Thanks guys....any other ideas...keep'em coming, I'm listening.

coupster · « **Reply #23 on:** January, 06, 2012, 01:15:10 PM »

OK, apollard, you are right, if this motor has been rebuilt, there really is now way to be sure what I have w/o opening it up, they could have rebuilt it in any configuration....(dang!)

66GT350...as to your statement regarding seeing the dist. gear from top...I attached a pic from internet with what I am seeing...I think I AM seeing the roll pin area and that appears cast. Also to add to that...the remanufactured dist. had a bunch of centering "blue" lines drawn on the shaft as if someone had replaced a gear on this distributor. I assume that was done in the remanufacturing process by autozone, BUT possibly it could have been swapped by the engine rebuilder when the points distributor was stabbed in there (and the rebuilder was knowledgeable enough to know to swap to a steel gear for the roller cam). So I really have no idea what kind of gear, and cam are in this motor. I will need to investigate further when I get home. IF I am seeing enough of this dist. gear to call it a cast iron gear, then I have to verify that my cam is a non-roller. IF this gear has been replaced and is steel gear, I still have to verify that the cam is a roller. So I am kinda stuck either way....yuk.

Thanks guys....and keep it coming