What's wrong with my garage wiring?

[manley]

I borrowed my buddy's welder a few days ago and when I got it to my house, it wouldn't work.  Tester shows juice all the way to the welder plug, but it wouldn't turn on.  I've tried a different circuit breaker and reversed the two hot wires.... neither changed anything.

When I took the welder back to my buddy's house, it works fine.  WTF?

I have 100A service.  The welder is a Hobart Handler 175.  All I need to do is weld a 1/2 inch spot in my exhaust so I can put the engine back in my truck!  I can't get to it once the engine and trans are installed.  Help!

[AzPete]

Did you compare how his plug power reads out with a volt meter? No adapter plugs used? 220 volt....correct.. With power to your plug, the CB should be good.

[Grabber70Mach]

Is the female wall receptacle wired correctly?

[manley]

No adapters.... I didn't check the power at his house.  I wired the female plug both ways.

It's been suggested that whoever ran the wiring to the garage didn't run it so there is 220 out there.  I won't be surprised if that's the case.  Just bought this house last spring and have been fixing poor wiring from the start.  The dummies had the well wiring just laying across the ground.

I'm going to haul the welder back to my house and hook it up to my dryer outlet and see if it works.  I *know* I have working 220 off the box in the house.

[AzPete]

Plugs may not be the same as there are many different types of 220 wiring plugs.

[manley]

I'll switch it for the few minutes I need it.  I had to switch what was already in the garage.

[B67FSTB]

IMO

If you have trouble with your electrical wiring of your home , do let it checked out by a professionel.
It is NOT an exception that a house burn to the ground causes by bad electrical installation.
For a peace of mind , I would let it checked regardless the costs.
 

[AzPete]

That.....and make sure your ins. is paid.....

[manley]

The house was checked out right after I bought it.  Insurance is paid!

Looks like the dumb bastards only ran 110 to the garage.  I used the dryer outlet to weld a quick bead and managed to get the engine in, back out, then back in(forgot the clutch assembly, d'oh!).   And trans is bolted up.  Been a long day.

[AzPete]

Good....no smoke let out of the house wiring....

....forgot the clutch....can't say I have heard that one before....

[buening]

There is a big difference between a 110v and 220v receptacle, so it'd be obvious.  The 220v will typically have 3 wires ran to it plus a ground (4 total).  There are other more knowledgeable people on here with electrical stuff, but I'm pretty sure you just need a double pole breaker to supply the two hot legs of 110v and also run your neutral and ground all to the switch.  A breaker box just has power going to it, so its not specific to 110 or 220v. What determines it is the type of breaker you use in the box

[Horseplay]

It's actually pretty simple stuff. A home electrical breaker box is fed single phase 220 VAC. There are two buss bars that carry the power to the various breakers. A double pole breaker simply taps into both bars whereby a single pole (110vac) breaker connects to only one.

A home 220vac outlet should have three wires. Two hots and a ground. This is called single phase. Three phase 220 has four wires, three hot and a ground. This is an "industrial" set-up that you will not find in a residential set-up.

To test your outlet, set it to the correct AC voltage range and place a lead on each of the two supposed "hot" wires. You should get 208-220 as a reading. If you don't, put your meter's "red" lead on one of them and the other meter lead (black one) on a good ground (typically the electrical box or conduit). Do the same for the other "hot" wire as well. If they are live, you should get a reading in the neighborhood of 120vac on each.

[buening]

Is there really two buss bars that a dual pole breaker contacts? I thought it was a single buss bar that a breaker snaps into and that a dual pole breaker is essentially two 110v breakers combined, providing two hot leads to the outlet.  I know a normal breaker box has two vertical rows of breakers (two buss bars), but a breaker only contacts one buss I thought.  I'm not electrician though

Dual pole:

 

Single Pole:


Welder 220v outlet:

[Horseplay]

Is there really two buss bars that a dual pole breaker contacts? I thought it was a single buss bar that a breaker snaps into and that a dual pole breaker is essentially two 110v breakers combined, providing two hot leads to the outlet.  I know a normal breaker box has two vertical rows of breakers (two buss bars), but a breaker only contacts one buss I thought.  I'm not electrician though

Yep, a dual connects to both bars. What you don't see is that the bars "zig-zag" across the box so that any two neighboring breaker slots are powered by a different line. You can't get 220 using the same leg twice.

[apollard]

A home 220vac outlet should have three wires. Two hots and a ground. This is called single phase. Three phase 220 has four wires, three hot and a ground. This is an "industrial" set-up that you will not find in a residential set-up.

National electrical code now requires both a nuetral and a ground be run to 220v outlets. So, newer 220 single phase receptacles and plugs have four wires and terminals.


So, it's no longer possible to differentiate single or multiple phase from the wires or terminals involved (although residential is almost always single phase, I have seen one three phase house in my lifetime). New 220V appliances are shipped without plugs in most case today, so that you can get the correct plug for your receptacle - 3 terminal for older houses, four for newer. The terminals will look different depending on the amperage involved.

[manley]

I tried 2 different dual pole breakers.  The second one came from the dryer outlet in the house.  I ended up putting it back in the house and changing the outlet to the welder outlet to complete my mission from hell.

I, admittedly, know very little about home electric, but I see some learning in my future.  I have to get this stuff fixed ASAP.

[Horseplay]

Mike,

Trying to understand what you are up against here. Do you have a 100A box in the garage? Is this where you tried the two different breakers? I'm guessing whoever wired that box ran a single leg to it and is using it to power both bars in the box. It's will work for any 120vac circuits but cannot deliver 220. Where does the power supply for that box originate? I'm sure it's not it's own feed so it must come from the main box in the house.

Take the cover off that box and send s a pic of the top half where the main power comes in.

[Grabber70Mach]

Pics at this point would help.  I am assuming that the garage has a sub-panel feed from the main panel in the house.  Check at the house first measure the poles coming out of the breaker supplying the garage, one pole to ground/neutral than the other, you should have 110/120V on each.  If you do go out to the garage panel and repeat the same as above.   You may have a breaker that has one bad pole, if you get no voltage on it it could also be a break in the wire between the Main and Sub-panels.

[Ponyman66]

After reading all the posts I think I have a grip on what you're talking about. When you stated you reversed the two hot wires on your plug, I'm thinking all you swapped were the power and neutral (110v single phase). As stated, you should have three wires, two hot and one neutral (plus the bare earth ground...possibly). When you installed the double pole breaker into the panel for your garage circuit, you didn't change anything (electrically speaking) because the second set of poles were simply supplying a dead (not connected) circuit in the panel. The second power leg never left the panel. If your 220v dryer plug is in your garage also, it's a separate circuit with a dedicated wire run from the plug to the panel. If all you have in your wall box for the plug you were trying to use is two wires (plus the bare copper earth ground...possibly), you do indeed have a 110v only service for all of your garage outlet circuit. In order to correct this you will need to run a new 3 conductor line from the outlet(s) to the circuit breaker panel and connect the hot wires (one to each power bus) and the neutral at the panel.

I had no 220v service at all to my garage (I have a separate laundry room inside the house so no 220v dryer circuit in the garage at all!), but needed it for my compressor. I had to wire in a whole new run. And, of course, the main circuit breaker panel was at the opposite end of the house (read a LONG wire run!). At the time time copper was really high and just the spool of 10/3 was gonna cost over $200! I could have gone a little cheaper with a size or two small conductor, but I wanted the circuit wired to handle a little higher amperage draw if I needed it in the future. I also went to a fused cut off panel in the garage from which I ran my compressor circuit off of. Fortunately copper prices dipped for a short while and the wiring costs followed! If you end up having to install a new run, have an electrician hook it up at the the main panel if you don't have electrical experience. Better a few bucks spent on being safe. Good luck with it!!

p.s. I continually stated "possibly" on finding the bare copper earth ground in your boxes. To clarify, they're supposed to be there. Many times in older or shoddy wiring jobs they clipped it or terminated it early because they were too lazy or stupid to hook it up properly. Also as stated it is required by national code.

[manley]

I'll get some pics some time this weekend hopefully.  I don't have affordable internet service available where I live, so my presence here is not very consistent!  I've been busy trying to finish my truck up, too.  Got it all done and then lost my hydraulic clutch fluid last night... so, another thing to fix. 

Hope you all have a great thanksgiving!