Author Topic: Cheap Chinese heads...UPDATE April '12: IT'S ALIVE AND RUNNING!! (Read 3295 times)

gtscode · « **Reply #25 on:** December, 12, 2010, 07:59:53 AM »

Quote from: stangg on December, 11, 2010, 01:36:14 PM

Kinda throws the whole cast in China vs Australia debate out the window if they are truly cast in Australia...
Can we get back to the topic of these chinese heads that the OP got. My original posting was simply to give the OP some guidance on what to look out for.

Agreed. I also don't think it helps being rude and defensive.

GrabberOrange69 · « **Reply #26 on:** December, 12, 2010, 06:00:26 PM »

Well, dad and I took the first look at them today. We pulled them apart for inspection, but haven't bolted them to the block yet, so there will be more learning to come. For now here's our assessment; we give them a "B". So far they look like they will do fine in a street engine, but I wouldn't recommend putting them with a serious race application without further machine work. Here goes:

All the valves popped in fine - we blued the ones that were suspect and they all passed the concentricity test. Dad likes to put the valve/seat contact closer to the edge of the valve and grinds the seat to 1/2 degree more to ensure that happens, but these were fine. The valves were stainless steel. The seats are hardened, but the exhaust is not stelite. Not a big deal.

Looking in the port I found the first thing I didn't like: the light spot in the port is sunlight coming through because the rocker stud holes go through to the intake port. Need to watch that when assembling and surely would drive you crazy looking for a vacuum leak or "where is my oil going and why does my engine smoke" troubleshooting. I plan to loctite the studs in.

The valve seals looked very nice, and the heads had steel shims to prevent the springs from chaffing the aluminum pocket. We could not find dad's spring pressure checker, but they look like your standard 110-120# at the seat single coil with a damper. They are topped by 1-piece valve retainers with hardened locks.

The single most troubling thing was the disparity in installed valve tip height between the intakes and exhausts - average .025". This was due to the seat install/grind not being held across the head. Not a big concern for a street cam with an adjustable valve train, but a bigger deal at high lift/rpm. You'd certainly have to square this away if you got serious to prevent eating a valve tip, and the difference in spring pressure (however that could be controlled with shims).

The heads were straight across the face with a nice surface.

So far, I'll chalk it up as win for $595 to the door, but I still have 2 quarters of "football" to play before making the final call. 210cc is a big port!

As a side, this is a photo of dad's current project; '68 Ranchero GT - the engine on the picker is a mild 289 with a vintage F4B intake. Cool.

70_Fastback · « **Reply #27 on:** December, 12, 2010, 06:12:59 PM »

Cool! Glad to hear positive results so far!

lethal289 · « **Reply #28 on:** December, 12, 2010, 06:16:19 PM »

Looks like a good deal. Im enjoying your write up.

ZFORCE · « **Reply #29 on:** December, 12, 2010, 08:04:41 PM »

I don't think you bought the Floo Tek heads, as I have a set and the exhausts are double drilled for different style headers, yours don't have the same holes as mine. Do you know what "brand" they are, or if they have any markings?

I bought a set of Floo Teks from Alex probably couple of years ago, and he assured me that they were from Australia. Emailed me every time and answered all my questions, but after reading this, I was just wondering how old is that email quote from him? I noticed shortly after I inquired, that he stopped listing them on his website, which got me wondering if maybe he found something else out about the Floo Teks and just stopped selling them. They are still in the original packaging as I have yet to start on my project FB, so I have no performance data to add! Keep posting, I'm curious too!

GrabberOrange69 · « **Reply #30 on:** December, 12, 2010, 08:17:55 PM »

Quote from: ZFORCE on December, 12, 2010, 08:04:41 PM

I don't think you bought the Floo Tek heads, as I have a set and the exhausts are double drilled for different style headers, yours don't have the same holes as mine. Do you know what "brand" they are, or if they have any markings...

They were listed as "PROCOMP REVISED PAIR" on FleaBay, and came in "ProComp" labeled boxes.

pprince · « **Reply #31 on:** December, 13, 2010, 07:27:57 AM »

That quote from Alex was from 2 years ago when the curfuffel went on at VMF.

Buying an inexpensive set of heads is like buying a cheap tool from Harbor Freight. You know you are not going to get a tool that will stand up to professional use.

I would put them on a mild street car but not on something I intended to beat on. If you want a better quality head you spend the money. If you want to go racing you get known quality castings and put in ARP studs, better quality springs, better retainers, better valves, etc. $600 vs $2000. There is no free lunch.

I am glad those heads checked out ok. The fear is always that you get junk that you just can't use.

GrabberOrange69 · « **Reply #32 on:** December, 13, 2010, 07:41:15 PM »

Quote from: pprince on December, 13, 2010, 07:27:57 AM

...I would put them on a mild street car but not on something I intended to beat on. If you want a better quality head you spend the money. If you want to go racing you get known quality castings and put in ARP studs, better quality springs, better retainers, better valves, etc. $600 vs $2000. There is no free lunch...
I am glad those heads checked out ok. The fear is always that you get junk that you just can't use.

They are going on a street application - not race.

Coupe · « **Reply #33 on:** December, 14, 2010, 01:50:54 PM »

Ya know just because it is from China does not make it junk right... Sure you can order a container load of cheap wrenches and sell them at harbor freight, but you can also spec out a quality part and pay more from the same place in China. With quality CNC machines becoming more and more prolific around the world all one needs is a good program, and the Chinese know how to ~~steal~~ obtain those.

B67FSTB · « **Reply #34 on:** December, 14, 2010, 02:01:28 PM »

machine yes material NO

There can be a huge different in the quality of material (read $$)

DAVER · « **Reply #35 on:** December, 14, 2010, 04:33:00 PM »

Have found this thread to be very interesting and informative..... drama and all. Cool

Coupe · « **Reply #36 on:** December, 15, 2010, 06:13:47 AM »

Quote from: B67FSTB on December, 14, 2010, 02:01:28 PM

machine yes material NO

There can be a huge different in the quality of material (read $$)

I have seen China chain saw cases that when x-ray tested show un-melted nuts and bolts in the case casting, so it can happen. But, that was a china vendor, so it can be an issue.
But keep in mind that just because it's from China does not always mean it's junk. If the company that sourced the manufacturer in China wants quality materials that is what they can get, if they pay for it. It really depends on what the source vendor designated etc..

Dont forget that iPod/iPhone/iPad are cheap china junk.

midpack · « **Reply #37 on:** December, 15, 2010, 06:43:00 AM »

Quote

If the company that sourced the manufacturer in China wants quality materials that is what they can get, if they pay for it.

Like tainted milk?
I work in manufacturing, I've seen stuff from China, Poland, and other low cost suppliers... when you factor in the cost of international shipping the $$$'s gotta come from someplace...

SAC69 · « **Reply #38 on:** December, 15, 2010, 07:34:23 AM »

Quote from: midpack on December, 15, 2010, 06:43:00 AM

Like tainted milk?
I work in manufacturing, I've seen stuff from China, Poland, and other low cost suppliers... when you factor in the cost of international shipping the $$$'s gotta come from someplace...

Cheaper labor is a big cost difference.

Coupe · « **Reply #39 on:** December, 15, 2010, 12:44:29 PM »

So, how much labor do you think a set of CNC heads really have? Do you think it's 10 hours...5 hours, more less?

I used to own a small motorcycle parts store and since I live just south of Indy I was able to go to the motorcycle manufacturers EXPO every year and I can tell you that you can get quality stuff from China and still spend less than the same part from Germany for example. You can also get crap and spend less if you are looking for a price point.

My point is dont discount something just because it is made in China. The PC you are using to read this was probably made in China, even your Mac most likely.

What I really wish is that we could buy products made in the USA that could compete price wise, and for that we need Tariffs!
Did you know glass marbles can be imported from China for less than the natural gas cost is for the American plant to make the same marble?

I also wish we could offer more vocational studies in high school to teach kids how to set up a manual lathe or mill to make a part, but thats a thread for the basement.

toddwallace · « **Reply #40 on:** December, 16, 2010, 02:37:12 AM »

Quote from: GrabberOrange69 on December, 12, 2010, 08:17:55 PM

They were listed as "PROCOMP REVISED PAIR" on FleaBay, and came in "ProComp" labeled boxes.

So...at the end of the day, does everyone feel these are better than the original Iron? Sounds like there are better ones one out there that are more expensive, but would you rather have these or a worked over pair of original 289 heads?

opentrackerSteve · « **Reply #41 on:** December, 16, 2010, 03:54:14 AM »

I wouldn't consider this (buying chinese heads) at all for a couple of reasons. 1) By purchasing from them, you're helping the reason our economy is in the crapper. Of course we can't compete w/countries who don't have the same environmental and labor standards and 2) if you do have a problem, you've thrown your money out the door.

Interesting but no thanks!

Dennis Harrelson · « **Reply #42 on:** December, 16, 2010, 05:35:58 AM »

Quote from: opentrackerSteve on December, 16, 2010, 03:54:14 AM

I wouldn't consider this (buying chinese heads) at all for a couple of reasons. 1) By purchasing from them, you're helping the reason our econo,y is in the crapper. Of course we can't compete w/countries who don't have the same environmental and labor standards and 2) if you do have a problem, you've thrown your money out the door.

Interesting but no thanks!

+1!

GrabberOrange69 · « **Reply #43 on:** December, 16, 2010, 11:12:21 PM »

Quote from: opentrackerSteve on December, 16, 2010, 03:54:14 AM

I wouldn't consider this (buying chinese heads) at all for a couple of reasons. 1) By purchasing from them, you're helping the reason our economy is in the crapper. Of course we can't compete w/countries who don't have the same environmental and labor standards and 2) if you do have a problem, you've thrown your money out the door.

Interesting but no thanks!

Your theory is only valid if I had the $1500 to spend on USA made heads - which I didnt. I did however, have $595 to spend on them. So I could leave the $595 in my pocket, or buy the heads. I chose to buy the heads. By the way, I dont really need them - they are a "want", not a need. I have a set of aluminum GT40 heads sitting on my shelf, but I wanted more intake volume and these 210cc jobs fit the bill.

So it's essentiallly for entertainment value.

By the way, I agree it's hard to compete when the Chinese as they have an unfair market value with their currency, being held artificailly low against the dollar. Plus, as you pointed out, they dont have to meet any environmental laws (a market externality). This is why I have never agreed they deserved "most favored nation" trading status with us.

As for the heads being large paperweights if they didnt work - my ace in the hole was my dad. He still has a fair amount of his machine shop equipment and could have fixed nearly anything with them - so we decided to give them a try

Thank you for your opinion - thats what makes this site rock!

66benchcoupe · « **Reply #44 on:** December, 17, 2010, 04:14:57 AM »

Quote

I have a set of aluminum GT40 heads sitting on my shelf, but I wanted more intake volume and these 210cc jobs fit the bill.

I'd be curious to see which head actually flows better. Flow is more about shape than volume and a good valve job can be worth an extra 10-15ccs. Just something to think about. . .

Robert

GrabberOrange69 · « **Reply #45 on:** December, 17, 2010, 06:44:27 AM »

Quote from: 66benchcoupe on December, 17, 2010, 04:14:57 AM

I'd be curious to see which head actually flows better. Flow is more about shape than volume and a good valve job can be worth an extra 10-15ccs. Just something to think about. . .

Robert

That's a great question - by the way the GT40s came off the engine these new heads are going on, a 393W. I'm sure cc to cc the GT40s probably flow more, though they are 160cc intakes vs. the 210cc of the Procomps. I had the car to the track only once where it ran a very traction limited 13.7 at 107mph. The MPH indicates to me there was still a lot more ET in the car with some traction, so we'll see what MPH we can come up with after the head swap. That'll be a decent indicator of how much more power it will be making.

M-train · « **Reply #46 on:** December, 23, 2010, 11:59:43 AM »

I think these heads are a great alternative to stock. I tried to get my friend to buy some instead of using the stock heads he payed nearly $400 to have rebuilt. Gonna be a lot of fun when those two piece retainers lets go when he first cranks the engine.

There is another guy, on the Corral, who builds engines for a living. He didn't say yea, or nay on these heads, but he did say that he has used a pair on a dyno test engine that he has ran on, and off for nearly three years with no problems.