100% gasoline - No Ethanol search

[Jonk67]

Well I read an interesting article in the local paper about more gas stations selling 100% gasoline with No Ethanol and their business jumped 25% in 3 mos. as they seem to cater to the classic crowd, those with small engines (lawn mowers, weedeaters,etc.) and boat owners. Seems the 10% ethanol is doing a number on them as the mower repair business is up also as the engine runs hotter with ethanol. Unfortunately they didn't list a website or link to find stations in your area and I'm not having luck searching the web so I guess I'll have to try marina's first. I'll be looking before my car gets back on the road to run 100% with my newly stroked engine.

Here's the article and what really chaffe's my arse is the 'Exec. Dir. of the E. TN Clean Fuels Coalition, Jonathan Overly at the end who states 100% gas should be available "But I would put a greater tax on the pure gas..That unblended gas should be more expensive than E85 or E10 (10% ethanol). Hit them in the wallet."  Why does he try to make people who need 100% gas to be evil and we must be punished with higher taxes? If you read the article it's a toss up is the ethanol has any real benefits, the lowering of emissions is mostly negated by worse fuel economy of 10% ethanol so you have to burn more to go the same distance...

http://www.dnj.com/article/20100212/BUSINESS/2120324/Ethanol-facing-bit-of-backlash

Rant over,
Jon

[classicdoug]

It's all government and all about money.  They will get your money and they don't care if they have to lie to the public to do it.

Doug

[67 evil eleanor]

I was thinking the same thing and actually talking to a friend that owns a Ford dealership about it. Our thoughts were the same. I think that the blends and low sulfer fuel diesel amounts to nothing more than a hidden tax. Most diesel owners lost a couple miles a gallon (20%) as well as the ethanol blends dropping the MPG as well in gas powered vehicles. If you think about it, that would amount to about a 20% increase in fuel tax for the state and feds. Again we get hosed. I do hear that Sunoco still has the pure ethanol free gas. Now if we could find the good ole sulferated diesel. 

[AzPete]

The one station I know of locally sells the pure stuff for a few cents a gal. more.........at least it is right on my normally traveled path. It is also a boat fueling station.

[Starfury]

I'd buy it.  The crap we have out here in Kalifornia sucks.  It's even worse in the winter.

[cecil671]

The Marathon station near my house sells 100% fuel with no ethanol for the same price other stations sell the shine gas for.
All of my vehicles run better and get better mileage on the pure stuff.

[SELLERSRODSHOP]

The Marathon station near my house sells 100% fuel with no ethanol for the same price other stations sell the shine gas for.
All of my vehicles run better and get better mileage on the pure stuff.

the marathon near our house also has a sign out front stating "no ethanol" & the price is about the same. cecil, where are you located "up east" ??

[Jonk67]

I'll have to map out all the Marathons near me and start checking them. I get to knoxville, Sevierville, etc. a few times a year and hope to get to come to one of the big car shows in Pigeon Forge/Gatlinburg this year, you near any of those Cecil?
Jon

[sigtauenus]

This is great news.  I'll have to start looking around here too.

I have a 2 year old mower in the shed that won't start, and after having all my small engines rebuilt or replaced a couple times, I'm pretty anal about not leaving fuel sitting in them.  Not sure what happened yet...

[tarafied1]

Before you get too worked up you should know a little more. The article has a negative spin. First, I agree that a "stock" carberated engine may not run as well on ethanol because as stated, the fuel mileage does suffer. It takes more fuel with alcohol and carb's are not capable of adjusting. The "flex" fuel cars & trucks are EFI and have the computer set to compensate for which ever fuel you use. E85 will actually perform better in an EFI vehicle (or carbed engine designed to run E85) because the the octane is over 100. Contrary to the article, E85 will run cooler as well. Many high performance users can run boost without an intercooler on E85. Now, If you have a E85 Carb (and they do exist) you could see the benefit as well on a carb motor. The jets and such are tweaked to the E85 fuel. Just think about it. What do the Blown Alcohol Top Fuel guys run? Alcohol is Alcohol and E85 is Alcohol! Yes it is corrosive! yes it will cause problems if the fuel system is not designed to handle it but it can be a good thing. Racers have run alcohol a long time with great success. The problem as I see it is if we carb guys switch to E85, that's all we can run and there are not enough stations that sell E85 to drive all over. For example, the only gas station near me that sells E85 is in Clarksville. That's a 30 mile drive. The flex fuel EFI is the way to go so you can run either, not sure how to do a flex fuel system with a carb yet. Lawn mowers and weedeaters made before a certain date may be SOL but newer ones are designed to run unleaded E10. Bottom line, E85 is or even E10 does not have to be your enemy. The tax thing, well that's your government working for ya!
attatched is some facts about E85

[droptop73]

Too true! Do not be afraid of E10. The problem lies in little or no control over content in ANY fuel. Reports of 20 - 30% ethanol content are not uncommon. I have many friends running E85 in their street cars (all have gone faster than on race gas) with no adverse effects. On E10 you may lose about 5% on both your horsepower and economy, this amount should not create any excess heat unless you are right on the edge of your cooling capacity anyway. E85 will cause an engine to run about 20 - 25% leaner due to the lower latent heat energy. One of my friends recently started his own business selling and modifying E85 carbs (horsepowerinnovations.com). This is not meant to sell anyone carbs.

I work in the small engine industry and we really do see the effects of ethanol on enginesand carburetors. My best recommendation is to purchase an alcohol  tester and know what your fuel is.

[turq66]

I'm no scientist but I can tell you the old Holley 4 bbl on my 289 does not like the ethanol.  :barf

[tarafied1]

I'm no scientist but I can tell you the old Holley 4 bbl on my 289 does not like the ethanol.  :barf

that's because it is not jetted for it, if you have a carb (any carb) set-up for ethanol it will run great but carbs can't self adjust so you can't go back and forth like a flex fuel EFI car.

[jims6t6]

I'll have to map out all the Marathons near me and start checking them. I get to knoxville, Sevierville, etc. a few times a year and hope to get to come to one of the big car shows in Pigeon Forge/Gatlinburg this year, you near any of those Cecil?
Jon

If you have an Ingles Super Market in Nashville they may have 100 gasoline. At least they do here in Knoxville.

[turq66]

I work in the small engine industry and we really do see the effects of ethanol on enginesand carburetors. My best recommendation is to purchase an alcohol  tester and know what your fuel is.

Seems like the simpler solution would be to use gasoline in a gasoline engine instead of using something that is known to cause damage. The whole ethanol things is just a political payoff to the corn farmers and the fat cats that make the stills IMHO.

that's because it is not jetted for it, if you have a carb (any carb) set-up for ethanol it will run great but carbs can't self adjust so you can't go back and forth like a flex fuel EFI car.

Are you talking about tha material the jets are made of or the size? I thought similar octane fuels would use similar size jets. I suspect it is the corrosive qualities of ethanol that is causing my problems.

[tarafied1]

Seems like the simpler solution would be to use gasoline in a gasoline engine instead of using something that is known to cause damage. The whole ethanol things is just a political payoff to the corn farmers and the fat cats that make the stills IMHO.

Are you talking about tha material the jets are made of or the size? I thought similar octane fuels would use similar size jets. I suspect it is the corrosive qualities of ethanol that is causing my problems.

I can't argue the political motivation cuz I don't really know but the concept is sound.
As for the jets, yes it would be the size, an engine requires more ethanol so the jets would need to be larger. Also the ethanol is much higher octane than gasoline, usually over 100 octane (rated at 105). The timing may also need to be adjusted when using E85 because it burns at a faster rate. The corrosive qualities shouldn't effect initial running but of coarse will deteriorate rubber parts quicker. It will in time lead to problems but simply switching back to 100% gasoline won't solve it after the damage is done. I'm not defending ethanol on a political front but it is a better performing fuel when the engine/fuel system is designed to use it.
1. Higher Octane - allows for higher compression, advanced spark timing (both make more power)
2. Faster burning rate - higher RPM's need faster burning rate
3. Higher Latent Heat of Vaporization - improves the fuel's ability to cool intake charge and combustion and more BTU's per gallon, reduced detonation, cooler engine
4. More Energy Value - Lower stoichiometric fuels (ethanol) allow more fuel to be burned which, in turn, increases the Net Energy Value of the fuel
E30 = ~337 BTU/gal
E85 = ~360 BTU/gal
Pump Gasoline = ~150 BTU/gal
Racing Gas = ~160 BTU/gal

Again, without changes to the fuel system and ignition timing, you won't see the benefit and in fact the engine will run lean. The EFI flex fuel cars can read the exhaust and adjust and are designed for the corrosive nature. Our classic Stangs cannot adjust themselves but we can. The problem as I stated earlier is that unless you live and only travel in and area where E85 is readily available you would have issues going back to gasoline. It is a good idea to update the fuel system however as times are changing, just like leaded fuel went away, so may 100% gasoline. Ethanol does not have to be a bad word!!!

[SELLERSRODSHOP]

If you have an Ingles Super Market in Nashville they may have 100 gasoline. At least they do here in Knoxville.

no ingles here in nashville. wish they did though. not so much for the gas, but the cinnamon rolls in the deli :)

[apollard]

I thought similar octane fuels would use similar size jets.

Jetting is determined by the chemistry of the fuel. Different fuels need different amounts of oxygen to combust completely. When burned completely, different fuels also release different amounts of heat.

Alcohol contains less heat (BTUs per pound) than gasoline (which also varies from batch to batch, but not much), so you need to put more in to create the same energy. It also has it's own oxygen atom, so you can put more alcohol in per unit of air - a win-win IF you are jetted correctly.

Octane quantifies only how resistant the fuel is to 'exploding' rather than burning in the cylinder, and does not relate to energy released or oxygen ratio needed.

[Jonk67]

Jetting is determined by the chemistry of the fuel. Different fuels need different amounts of oxygen to combust completely. When burned completely, different fuels also release different amounts of heat.

Alcohol contains less heat (BTUs per pound) than gasoline (which also varies from batch to batch, but not much), so you need to put more in to create the same energy. It also has it's own oxygen atom, so you can put more alcohol in per unit of air - a win-win IF you are jetted correctly.

Octane quantifies only how resistant the fuel is to 'exploding' rather than burning in the cylinder, and does not relate to energy released or oxygen ratio needed.

VS. tarafied1
Energy Value of the fuel
E85 = ~360 BTU/gal
Pump Gasoline = ~150 BTU/gal

What's the BTU of E10? ~160? 175?

Ok, you guys are confusing me, apollard states that alcohol contains less heat but Craigs shows it producing more? Am I reading apollards backwards?

So I could rejet my Demon carb to burn E10 better but the seals/gaskets would still deteriorate faster due to the drying effect, correct? I would also get better mileage with 100% gas (maybe more $/gal. than E10).
But the E10 would increase my octane rating (if needed by compression/timing, if not needed = no benefit?).
I'm trying to stick to the 2 options available most widely 100% and E10 for discussion.

Good discussion, I'm learning on this site, that scares me :scar

Jon

[jims6t6]

Jetting is determined by the chemistry of the fuel. Different fuels need different amounts of oxygen to combust completely. When burned completely, different fuels also release different amounts of heat.

Alcohol contains less heat (BTUs per pound) than gasoline (which also varies from batch to batch, but not much), so you need to put more in to create the same energy. It also has it's own oxygen atom, so you can put more alcohol in per unit of air - a win-win IF you are jetted correctly.

Octane quantifies only how resistant the fuel is to 'exploding' rather than burning in the cylinder, and does not relate to energy released or oxygen ratio needed.

Those are good too. :)

[tarafied1]

okay, appollard and I mentioned two different things:
 "Latent Heat of Vaporization"
1. Measures a fuel’s ability to cool the intake charge and combustion chamber
2. Measured in BTU’s per gallon
3. Higher rated fuels remove heat better

"Energy Value"
1. The total heat energy contained in a given amount of fuel – BTUs/lb.
2. Horsepower generation depends on “Net Energy Value” - Equal to the energy value multiplied by the amount of fuel that can be burned

basically what we are trying to say is you need more ethanol but it produces more power and a cooler engine, less detonation so you can run a more advanced timing and higher compression which will also improve power. Fuel mileage will be less than gasoline and it is corrosive so special gaskets, fuel pump, hoses etc. are needed but are available. 

[sigtauenus]

Guys I'm not getting this.

Ethanol improves power but you get less fuel mileage.  So you need more fuel to get more power, right? 

You need to use more ethanol than gasoline to get the same power out.  So gallon for gallon, ethanol produces less power, right?

I'm not getting the supposed advantage of ethanol from a performance standpoint, even if I do change the gaskets, hoses, etc.

[tarafied1]

think of it this way, If you want more HP you can add a blower or Nitrous right? What do they do? They increase the amount of fuel and air that you can get into the engine (combustion chamber) for a bigger explosion right. Well ethanol vs gasoline is kinda the same thing. The fuel/air ratio is higher for more fuel (ethanol) into the engine but the ethanol will not detonate so you can run higher compression and advance the spark for higher rpm's. It also burns cleaner so with a "richer" mix you won't foul plugs and blow black smoke. Does that help?