Test fit of Messr Sanborn's CCM's - update - Rethinking my options

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[cmayna]

How I spent part of Turkey day:


My engine builder told me to test fit these crusty rusty pups before giving them to him for  honing, porting, whatever.  Just wanted to make sure there was no warppage preventing mounting.   Next I will have the mating surface machined down just a tad for flatness. Mr. Builder will then do his thing followed by blasting and ceramic coating.

The inside diameter of the exit tube on both sides is exactly 2".    I see tons of meat allowing us to open them up to hopefully 2.50", maybe,,,,more but I'd be happy with 2.25".


Also, what color should I have them coated?  Being that the motor will be mostly black and silver (Raider colors????)  KBMWRS suggested a dark gray, which might have more of a natural color.

Test fit of Messr Sanborn's CCM's - update - Rethinking my options

Test fit of Messr Sanborn's CCM's - update - Rethinking my options

[johnpro]

Craig, why would you go to all that expense of honing/machining/coating stock logs, when you could get a tuned header that will run circles around your end result and spend less money doing it?

To answer the question, though, I'd go with either a silver or black ceramic coating.  Black won't show stains as much.

[cmayna]

John, 
WTF, I spent most of yesterday wondering the same.   After adding all the different costs to hone/blast/coat them why not reconsider going with some headers that I can find which will tuck up reasonably underneath.  As you said might be cheaper.  I do realize my choices are not that plentiful especially using stock clutch linkage on a cleveland, but I should reconsider my options before I take a big financial plunge on these.

Sincerely
All Messed Up

[Opentracker]

These will fit your car with the ORP clutch linkage, hang no lower than the oil pan and will drain your wallet.

Test fit of Messr Sanborn's CCM's - update - Rethinking my options

http://www.fordpowertrain.com/FPAindex/headers1.htm

[lethal289]

ohhhh, those are nice!

[6t6red]

I have FPA headers and I am very satisfied with the fit and looks.  They do tuck up around the floor to give you ground clearance.  I like mine.   Stan has different color coatings also.

[Opentracker]

We have two sets of FPA's, one on our 65 coup with the Cleveland and our 66 coup with the Boss 302. They are pricey but very nice headers. If Stan made a set for the Falcons, the Mule would have some too.

[cmayna]

Yeah,
I saw those on FPA's website earlier.  Very nice, not cheap, but would compliment the motor instead of everyone tossing their cookies at the logs.

I also think that as long as I keep away from Slowmaster mufflers, what ever headers I pick will probably meet my sound satisfaction.

"Rumble from the Jungle"   

[tarafied1]

I got some $800+ FPA headers on my 429 in the 67. When Stan builds headers he does it right! I think they are worth every penny.

[Opentracker]

I'm going with Magnaflow's next time. I hear they are quieter and have a better sound. I've put flow's on most everything we have. Time for a change.

[tarafied1]

I went from Flowmaster 40's to Magnaflow's and it was a LOT quieter.

[AzPete]

I went from the 40 series Flows to 8" glass packs......wake the neighborhood.....

[Fast68back]

Short clip of my magnaflows

[cmayna]

I am using Magnaflows on Red and can see myself using them on Shag as well.

[RyanG85]

What kinda coin you looking at with the porting and coating the logs? If its anywhere close to the cost of the headers, should be no consideration.

[daveSanborn]

Um, those are the same manifolds Ford designed/used on the Boss 302.

Are they as nice as Stans?  No.

Stock block, crank, cam, pistons, heads, intake......

.... and then a $1k set of headers.

I don't see the logic.


Craig, if you decide not to use the stock logs, sell them, recoupe your shipping costs and donate any difference to SF.

[apollard]

Um, those are the same manifolds Ford designed/used on the Boss 302.

Are they as nice as Stans?  No.

Stock block, crank, cam, pistons, heads, intake......

.... and then a $1k set of headers.

I don't see the logic.

+1

Lots of great HP made with stock manifolds. A little clean up and it'll work fine unless you are going for all out upper end HP. Skip the high end coatings and go with one of the new high temp exhaust paints, and it's even better $$ savings.

Not as sexy? Sure. But the sexier they are the harder they are to keep running right

[johnpro]

Um, those are the same manifolds Ford designed/used on the Boss 302.

Are they as nice as Stans?  No.

Stock block, crank, cam, pistons, heads, intake......

.... and then a $1k set of headers.

I don't see the logic.


Craig, if you decide not to use the stock logs, sell them, recoupe your shipping costs and donate any difference to SF.

I wasn't suggesting a $1,000 set of headers.  Doesn't Hooker make something for a Cleveland?  If the $1,000 headers are the only header available, yeah, it might be cheaper to have the stock logs extrude honed.  If we're talking a set of ceramic coated Hooker Comps, I doubt you're going to make those stock logs flow better for less money (the extrude honing will cost the same as a set of ceramic coated Hooker Comps).

Now if we're just talking about coating the stock logs and bolting them on, that's another story all together.  Craig was talking about doing a bunch of machine work, including honing them, though.

Besides ... arguing that something was good enough for a Boss 302 40 years ago isn't really much of an argument.  Many (most ?) of us now have cars that will spank a stock Boss 302.

[cmayna]

I anticipate it costing me around $550+ to have the logs honed, machined flat & coated.  This is the same price as FPA's non coated headers.  Their coated series run an additional $225.   

I don't know if any header which will tuck up tightly under the car as well as FPA's.  Hooker's super comps hang way too low for my likings but don't know about any of their other series.

It is difficult to find good tight fitting headers thus why I originally opt'd for stock manifolds.  Now that I start adding up the costs, why put so much into stock manifolds?

[daveSanborn]

It makes no difference to me what you end up doing Craig.

One other thing to consider......

Can anyone here verify that the design of aftermarket 4V cleveland headers (designed for '70+ model years) will fit into a '68 engine compartment?  Isn't Nick (DodgeStang) running a Cleveland 4V in his 67-68?  What's he using?


There are two things that I am absolutely certain of.....

1.)  The stock manifolds will fit w/o modifying anything on your '68.

2.)  99% of aftermarket headers WILL restrict the exhaust flow when compared to the stock manifolds.  Notice the primary tube diameter of aftermarket headers.... it's anywhere from 1 5/8ths to 1 7/8ths.  Now measure and calculate the 4V exhaust port on either the cylinder head or the manifold.  Compare the two areas.  Which one is greater?  Please post the numbers here for all to see.

The whole purpose of a 4V Cleveland is it's ability to breathe.  Restricting the heads with 1 5/8th to 1 7/8ths primary tube headers and you may as well bolt on a 2V carb.

Take a good look at this.....

http://home.comcast.net/~jelerath/mustang/Specs/heads-fr.html] [url]http://home.comcast.net/~jelerath/mustang/Specs/heads-fr.html[/url]



Here's an example of what I speak of...... notice the primary tube diameter.  Just because it's aftermarket does not necessarily make it better.  It's manufactured/sold because people want to use "headers" to dress up their engine compartment and because they look pretty they must also be better than the stock manifolds.  Those wimpy little 1 3/4" primary tubes ain't doing anything to create horsepower, if anything, they're restricting it.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HOK-6920-1HKR/

These come a little closer to the flow capacity of the 4V heads.... but good luck getting them to fit in your '68 with the shock towers still in place.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HED-85180/

My recommendation is to re-surface the mounting flange, clean, coat/paint the stock manifolds.  Screw extrude honing them, you'll never wind the motor higher enough to see the benefit of it.


Lastly, do not under-estimate the power/value of the 4V Cleveland heads.  In bone stock form they will outflow almost every high dollar aftermarket cylinder head manufactured today.  With 2.19 intake and 1.71" exhaust valves, the motor loves to breathe!  The more RPM, the better.  You'll see what I mean when you start driving Shag.  The power curve will continue to climb until you decide to let off the gas pedal.  You'll never have the cajones to floor it and leave it there for 60 seconds.  I know, because I didn't either.  Try to find a 351C-4V cylinder head comparison from an aftermarket manufacturer.... all of the literature I found from TFS, AFR, Edelbrock years ago would not compare their product to the 4V head.  They astericked their comparison charts stating that the 4V head was not a "suitable" street head.  Bullcrap, they're only afraid to compare their state of the art $1800 dollar AL cylinder heads to something that performs better.

[70_Fastback]

Isn't Nick (DodgeStang) running a Cleveland 4V in his 67-68?  What's he using?

He's got a 65.

[daveSanborn]

Okay...... if it'll fit within a 65, a '68 should be comparable.

[Fast68back]

He's got a 65.

He has both....

[daveSanborn]

Yes, one of them is running a stroked 351C-4V though.  Curious what headers he's using is all.

[Midlife]

He's using that unusual header combination that has a cross-over tube that goes under the engine, IIRC.