Author Topic: Question for the alignment gurus (Read 704 times)

66gt350 · « **on:** March, 29, 2010, 07:45:00 PM »

Ok...gotta question for the alignment gods out there. Here's what I got: Tubular upper and lower controls arms from Shaun -- AWESOME product!!! Roller spring perch from Opentracker -- another awesome product. And finally, the adjustable strut rods from TCP.

I got everything installed and took the car in for an alignment. Here's the specs that was given to me: Caster: DS: 1 1/2°, PS: 2°. Toe: 1/8", Camber: DS: 1/4°, PS: 3/8° (can't recall if he said that the camber was pos or neg...I'll have to look into that.

The wheels are located very far forward...so much that when the body shop put on the fenders, Wes had to roll the front of the passenger side so it won't rub. Here's a couple of pics:

What I'm thinking...I know, I know...I'm dangerous when I think!!! I'm thinking of removing equal amounts of shims from the rear bolt of the control arms (about .100 to .125) and then lengthen the strut rods. Does this make sense? Will this affect the camber and toe in? And how much should I lengthen the strut rods?

Or should I say :fbomb it and just leave it alone???
thanks

RyanG85 · « **Reply #1 on:** March, 29, 2010, 07:50:56 PM »

I wouldnt leave it alone. Were the fenders on for alignment? I would bring it back to alignment shop and get it right. (I'm no expert on this)

hivewax · « **Reply #2 on:** March, 29, 2010, 08:24:07 PM »

Alignment shop put my alignment at -1 camber, -1 caster, 0.25 toe-in. Tire is center in the wheelwell. Race puts the caster more forward at +2 to +4, so they shave the fenders.

AtlantaSteve · « **Reply #3 on:** March, 30, 2010, 04:27:25 AM »

I'm no expert...but...I love to talk...

If you touch any of the shims, your alignment is pretty much blown, and you'll need to start over. It is my opinion that they used your adjustable strut rods to dial in most of the caster, and used the shims mostly for camber adjustment. The recommendations are to use shims as much as practical, and then use the adjustable strut rods to really dial it in.

The shops HATE shim adjustments (You even mentioned your guy in particular complained about it) and anything they can do to avoid that they will. The problem is that as you add and remove shims to correct camber, you're affecting caster, and vice versa, and so getting everything just right takes a lot of time and headache. So they probably just set the caster by dialing in your strut rod, which pulled the wheel forward in the wheel well.

But aside from just looks, John from ORP and I were talking earlier this week and he mentioned something to me I was completely unaware of. When you use Shims to adjust caster, you're pushing the upper ball joint rear-ward, which pushes the tie-rod end backward on the car, reducing bumpsteer. The converse is true. As you shorten your strut rods, you're pulling the lower ball joint forward, pulling the tie-rods forward as well, increasing bump-steer. This can of course be reduced with a baer-tracker or the like, but still, you want to get as much caster as is practical using the shims. If I had to bet, I'd guess your guy didn't do this.

I have rubber bushed LCAs, so I'll REALLY need to not dial in too much caster with the rods, because they put a slight amount of bind on the rubber bushing. While It probably isn't enough to worry about, why go intentionally adding bind. With your SorT LCAs, you don't have that problem, as they have a spherical bearing :coo

My plan is to learn to do my own alignments. I just rarely hear that a shop took the time, got it right, and the results were great.

hivewax · « **Reply #4 on:** March, 30, 2010, 05:55:44 AM »

Also, mix matching brands effects front suspension geometry. I had TCP LCA's swapped to C-A Global West LCAs and that changed the toe-in significantly. I'd compare the TCP strut rods to the originals.

BobV · « **Reply #5 on:** March, 30, 2010, 05:59:17 AM »

I've always installed the strut rods so that the LCA is exactly perpendicular (90*) to the frame rail.
Do all camber/caster adjustment with shims on the UCA.

MarkStang · « **Reply #6 on:** March, 30, 2010, 07:24:28 AM »

For what its worth. My tire sits the same way pretty much. Forward in hole I guess I would say. I have standard strut rods right now.

66gt350 · « **Reply #7 on:** March, 30, 2010, 11:28:48 AM »

Well...I just bit the bullet and am ordering alignment tools from Summit. I'll get it set up the way that I want it.

AzPete · « **Reply #8 on:** March, 30, 2010, 11:33:18 AM »

Once you have done it a couple of times, it becomes pretty easy. Plus, as you say, you can put it where you want it.

Sluggo · « **Reply #9 on:** March, 30, 2010, 04:23:22 PM »

:scar Holy shart!

The right side is really pulled forward!

For not being an expert, Steve has a pretty good grasp on alignments.

You need to loosen up the strut rods and make your caster at the upper control arm. Like Steve said, You want the lower ball joint leading the upper. But it needs to be achieved by moving the upper back not the lower forward.

gotstang · « **Reply #10 on:** March, 30, 2010, 06:25:25 PM »

I agree with these guys...that ain't right. From what I've gathered, you really shouldn't set caster with the strut rods, since keeping the strut rods close to stock length helps center the wheel in the hole, which reduces possible tire clearance issues, and reduces bind on the (tiny) LCA bushing...all good things.

Seems like the chief advantage of adj. strut rods is the use of heim joints in place of bushings, not the adjustability? Then again, I hain't no expert.

Shaun · « **Reply #11 on:** March, 31, 2010, 05:44:40 AM »

I set my UCA as short as possible, bolted straight to the tower with no shims. Set the camber with the lower eccentric and caster with the strut rod. Of, course, I'm using our roller suspension so binding isn't an issue. With +4 degrees of caster my wheel looks nowhere near as forward as yours does. Every car is different!

I think you did the right thing buying the alignment tools. If you can make some good turn plates you'll be all set. I ship the UCA's with both bearings 3 turns out. Each turn is .0625", so try threading the rear one in 3 turns. This will add in some positive caster by moving the UCA ball joint rearward allowing you to lengthen the strut rod and move your wheel rearward.

Alignments are trial and error because each change effects the other settings so be paitent and ask questions. You have my number if you want to talk. 8-)

AzPete · « **Reply #12 on:** March, 31, 2010, 06:08:05 AM »

I use garbage bags under the wheels for turn plates. No degree markings but it is not hard to figure out.

MarkStang · « **Reply #13 on:** March, 31, 2010, 08:02:40 AM »

So....since I have not done my alignment yet, can I assume buying this "Home alignment tool" is the way to go? I will do it in a heart beat if so. Can we see some pics of the tool on some Mustangs at home using this? :)

AzPete · « **Reply #14 on:** March, 31, 2010, 08:05:45 AM »

No pictures here but Midlife and I aligned my '66 before and after some work being done. I then took the car to a good, local guy for and old fashion type check on the alignment. We were so close that we called it good. I see no reason to go anywhere but Mid's garage for alignments from now on. Plus the beer is good.......

MarkStang · « **Reply #15 on:** March, 31, 2010, 08:43:18 AM »

Thanks AZ I seem to remember you guys doing that. I have probably answered my own question. I am lucky enough to have an old school guy in Groveland Florida that will do it the right way...but I am smart enough to learn myself and get it Juuuust right.

Any LNKY LINKS To some options....I hope this is not considered hi jacking, if so I bow to the side :)

Shaun · « **Reply #16 on:** March, 31, 2010, 08:57:26 AM »

Quote from: MarkStang on March, 31, 2010, 08:43:18 AM

Thanks AZ I seem to remember you guys doing that. I have probably answered my own question. I am lucky enough to have an old school guy in Groveland Florida that will do it the right way...but I am smart enough to learn myself and get it Juuuust right.

Any LNKY LINKS To some options....I hope this is not considered hi jacking, if so I bow to the side :)

I use one of these - http://www.streetortrack.com/Longacre-Caster-Camber-Gauge-with-magnetic-adapter-pr-23516.html

Bolted to one of these - http://www.streetortrack.com/Longacre-QuickSet-adapter-pr-23976.html

sigtauenus · « **Reply #17 on:** March, 31, 2010, 11:40:19 AM »

Quote from: Shaun on March, 31, 2010, 08:57:26 AM

I use one of these - http://www.streetortrack.com/Longacre-Caster-Camber-Gauge-with-magnetic-adapter-pr-23516.html

Bolted to one of these - http://www.streetortrack.com/Longacre-QuickSet-adapter-pr-23976.html

Those are both really cool.

What do you use for toe-in?

gt289 · « **Reply #18 on:** March, 31, 2010, 12:14:12 PM »

66gt350, that is a massively jacked-up alignment. You'll be way, way ahead doing it yourself.
Taking the time to do it right, even if a shop has to bill it that way, is not something that you
see too often these days......